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Why I am still skeptical about Hive: Response to "How Steem Became Hive" by lukestokes

@glory7@glory7 (76)2332d

This post is my response to the recent article How Steem Became Hive by @lukestokes, to show that where we do not agree and to find out how to facilitate potential discussion to go forward.

It will be posted both in Steem and Hive.

Before I begin, let me emphasized the following points first:

  1. I respect lukestokes a lot. While the only interaction with him is exchanging replies several times and reading his articles recently (so I won't be surprised that he does not really know me), I believe that he is one of the, if not most, considerate and reasonable witnesses and I would love to discuss and share views with him any time. In fact, even after him shutting down his steem witness node, I still vote for him as a sign of respect.

  2. I am writing this to fill the gap and move forward, if possible. That being said, I am not writing this to argue that one side is perfect and the other side is evil - it is more like a situation both sides did something wrong and two wrongs don't make it right. Since it seems that users with different opinions are scared of saying so, I decide to write a dark side of Hive. I do know that there also is a dark side of Steem Inc (or Justin), but I am pretty sure you have read thousands of them so I would skip here.

  3. I will focus on the core understanding differences on two main issues, as most of the topics are discussed in many ways already.

For the rest of the article, I will mainly use quotes from the luke's article (quoted and used the numbers from the original article, like ". 14. ") to start and put my views below.

1. It is 22.2 witnesses who initiated the attack (and changed their words)


Many users, including myself, became skeptical in supporting most 22.2 witnesses (most of them are the current Hive top witnesses) because

  1. They changed their words.

  2. They took someone's money first.

In January 2019, lots of witnesses publicly wrote that they will not touch Steem Inc. accounts.

. 2. The community is constantly frustrated with Steemit over the use of this stake with some even threatening to null out the keys for it last year. I and other witnesses stated plainly we will not do that. Example: https://steempeak.com/stopthepowerdown/@lukestokes/is-steem-centrally-controlled

I was not familiar with this matter, so I read the article and related links. In short, Ned was powering down steemit account as he feared that witnesses would fork his account out, and witnesses wanted to persuade him that they will not do such action.

For example, luke wrote

"I will not implement, support, or condone any hard fork that effects the balances, keys, or security of any accounts on the current chain," and

@therealwolf wrote (https://steempeak.com/statement/@therealwolf/public-witness-statement-therealwolf)

"I will not support any fork that is trying to alter/remove the balance/keys/stake of Steemit Inc. on the main-chain STEEM!"

It seems that other witnesses wrote something similar.

And this event, soft fork 22.2, comes, and everything changed.

. 8. Soft fork 22.2 freezes the ninja mined stake, prevents it from being powered down or participating in governance. It's an easily reversible code change and not a theft or ransom. All token balances are intact.

Let alone that there was not a single word of public "community discussion" before the actual fork.

  • If you were one of these "normal" users(like me) who did not know about this, make sure to check whether you really think people who made such decision would treat you as a community member.

Focusing on what happened: I still do not understand how one can think of this as "not a theft or ransom". This is clearly taking someone's asset as a hostage and asking for a random, at best.


Let me use an analogy of a reply to the 22.2 fork (I forgot who wrote this).

Andy took Bob's wallet with lots of money in it, without any notice.

Andy says it is "easily reversible", and "temporary", and Andy says that he may return it to Bob only if Bob agrees that he would use the money in the wallet in a way that Andy thinks correct.

Again, my understanding is that it's ransom at best, and probably theft.

And lastly, it is not "the" ninja-mined stake - it is one of the ninja-mined stakes.

At this point, we all know that there are lots of other ninja-miners and lots of 22.2 witnesses (and Hive witnesses) are ninja-miners themselves or getting witness votes from ninja-mined stakes (blocktrades, freedom, berniesanders, etc.)

When I point this out, some people argued that Steem Inc. stakes are different as there is a "promise" that these stakes should be used in a certain way.

Okay, I think now we are ready to move to the next core issue.

2. If you think "public interview" is a "promise", you should blame blocktrades (or Hive) for breaking "promise" and lying first.


. 1. in 2016, Steemit, inc launched a PoW blockchain and ninja-mines 80% of the tokens telling the community they will be used for the community and not for Steemit, inc's own profit. There is no contract between them and the community, but see interviews, 2017 roadmap, etc

There are some users who kept saying that there was a "promise" or "social contract" of Steem Inc. As he notes, the only "evidence" is indirect anecdotal pieces from like 3 years ago.

. 14. Within less than a day of launching Hive, the list of accounts that will not be included in the airdrop is released. CoinDesk interview of Blocktrades says it will be ninjamined stake. Hive announcement says it will include those who support centralization.

This. If anyone thinks that "promise" regarding Steem Inc. is broken, he or she should attack Blocktrades(or Hive) too. He backtracked on what he publicly interviewed, in a couple of days.

and it seems that luke did not want to discuss more of "lies", but let me present them here again.

so this is the CoinDesk interview luke mentioned: Steem Community Plans Hostile Hard Fork to Flee Justin Sun’s Steemit

  • By the way, this CoinDesk article has been updated a bit from the initial one - but it still contains these "lies".

For this initial hard fork, one key thing will change: The tokens from the original development fund controlled by Steemit will not be carried over to the new chain. Everyone else's will be ported over.

Everyone with tokens on Steem will also have tokens on the new chain; that is, except for the Steemit wallets controlled by Sun’s Tron Foundation.

As we all know by now, the day after this interview Hive changed words: not going to airdrop to a select group of users by a random, subjective criteria which was not disclosed to most users, even including many Hive witnesses in advance.

Furthermore, they lied about the tokens from the "Steemit wallets". It clearly states even twice that Steemit tokens will "not be carried over". And what actually happened?

They took it to @steem.dao, along with the stakes from the 326 airdrop excluded users' stake, which is under control of the "community", or in fact basically the top Hive witnesses and whales.

This reply from Chanse Bradell summarizes what actually happened:

So you guys are taking the ninja-mined stake and using it? LOL.

Just to add, in Why I won’t be compromising with Justin Sun blocktrades wrote that the financial resource will come from "several prominent stakeholders."

No mention of using "confiscated" Steem Inc.'s tokens (and potentailly airdrop excluded tokens) in steem.dao account to "fund" Hive.

Does the community have the resources to launch a blockchain?

Yes, we do. It’s actually much easier for us to launch a chain, because of the many lessons we’ve had operating the Steem blockchain. And as far as financial resources go, several prominent Steem stakeholders have privately offered both computing resources and significant financial support, including my own company, BlockTrades. Even at this early stage, I’m utterly convinced we have sufficient support to launch and develop this new blockchain.

This article went much longer than I had initially guessed.

Let me wrap up quickly.

While I understand that Steem Inc (and/or Justin) has made lots of mistakes, I also believe that the 22.2 witnesses (or Hive witnesses) have done many wrongdoing (or mistakes), and it seems that they are the ones who attacked first.

When both sides change words(and make mistakes), I believe that the initiator is more responsible. That's why I am still skeptical about supporting Hive.

That being said, I also believe that unnecessary aggressive attitude and actions from both sides would not make things any better. I hope that there could be a positive development and we may find a nice solution.

To do that, I think understanding each other is the necessary first step - and luke's article would show how Hive users think and hopefully mine would show why Steem users are hesitant to support Hive.

Comments · 3

  • @pharesim(74)· 2332d

    There are some users who kept saying that there was a "promise" or "social contract" of Steem Inc. As he notes, the only "evidence" is indirect anecdotal pieces from like 3 years ago.

    Great idea, judging situations you know nothing about. It was more than 4 years ago, right when steem started.

    This was a founding stone of the blockchain, none of us initial investors would've taken part in the project without that promise, and it would've been steemit alone mining it - making it a security and creating loads of legal issues (which may now hit justin by breaking it). You may not have been there when that happened, so you don't care. As it was promised to us, we do.

    For the rest, see what @ats-david wrote, you're a moron. And in 4 hours, when @darthknight's power down hits, you'll be responsible for a user losing 180,000 STEEM because you don't allow him to stop the power down or change his vesting withdrawal route. Then you're a real criminal, and I hope he goes after those responsible to get his money back.

  • @ats-david(75)· 2332d

    In January 2019, lots of witnesses publicly wrote that they will not touch Steem Inc. accounts.

    The ones that you quoted stated that they would not "alter" or "delete" any balances, not that transactions would never be ignored. No Steem account balances have ever been altered or deleted by any witnesses that are now here on Hive.

    On the other hand, you and your cohorts made promises to never "freeze" any accounts...then went and did exactly that.

    Focusing on what happened: I still do not understand how one can think of this as "not a theft or ransom". This is clearly taking someone's asset as a hostage and asking for a random, at best.

    Again, nothing was "taken" by any of the witnesses currently on Hive. Everyone on Steem still has access to their Steem balances...except the users that you have frozen, of course.

    And if you believe that freezing accounts is theft or ransom, then you are currently participating in theft and/or ransom. So what you are complaining about in regards to soft fork 22.2 - even though your understanding of it is flawed - you are actually doing on Steem with actual user monies. If you are claiming that these are criminal actions, then you are a criminal.

    No mention of using "confiscated" Steem Inc.'s tokens (and potentailly airdrop excluded tokens) in steem.dao account to "fund" Hive.

    Nothing was "confiscated" from Steemit Inc. or any other Steem account. As stated, no Steem account had any of their balances touched when the Hive fork occurred. The new chain is not the old chain and balances could be changed via the hard fork code. The new chain created new tokens and those tokens were distributed as stated in the fork announcement. Nobody on Steem lost anything. Nothing was taken.

    If you had no Hive at the time of the fork, then you could not have lost it. Simple logic. I would suggest learning about how ownership actually works.

    And just to be clear...

    It was your SCT group via @proxy.token that effectively held the Steem blockchain for ransom while the threat of a hostile takeover was in full play. And your group did this because you wanted to selfishly push code changes that would benefit your group and its long-standing scheme to milk rewards from the Steem blockchain.

    You used your proxy votes to assist in the attempted centralization of Steem in order to get things that you couldn't otherwise get through actual consensus. I warned your group in your chat that this was ransom, that it was a terrible idea, and that it would backfire. Did any of you listen? Nope.

    And now you're all throwing a little temper tantrum because you voted against decentralization and got what you deserved for doing so...which was no free tokens on Hive - a blockchain that wants to ensure that it is and remains decentralized. So if you think that using centralized control to freeze user accounts will somehow open negotiations to receiving tokens here in Hive, then I must say...you're a fucking moron.

    You and the people in your group that voted for centralization and continue to use ransom tactics will get nothing from Hive. And that's precisely what you've earned. Better to accept the consequences of your actions and move on because you'll get no sympathy here.

  • @lukestokes(77)· 2332d

    Thank you for reading my posts and responding with the intention of more open dialogue about these issues.

    There are some points you've made that I'd like to clarify from my perspective and get your views one.

    And this event, soft fork 22.2, comes, and everything changed.

    Not true. Please, you have to understand blockchain technology before you can confidently comment on it.

    balances, keys, or security of any accounts on the current chain

    v0.22.2:

    • Balances were unchanged
    • Keys were unchanged
    • Security was unchanged (by this, I mean the accounts themselves were not compromised, their keys were not nulled or changed or adjusted in any way that might make the accounts less secure)

    Please, don't make false statements, especially during these times. Misinformation causes problems for everyone.

    Let alone that there was not a single word of public "community discussion" before the actual fork.

    There was a lot of discussion. Just because you were not part of them does not mean they didn't happen. The threat to the chain was real (and proven real but what actually did happen, both with 22.5 and now 22.8888). You say "normal users" but I have to ask you (and please answer honestly), do you think someone with a few hundred Steem Power like you should have the same influence as someone with tens or hundreds of thousands of Steem Power? If your answer is yes, please understand how DPoS actually works and read the book Skin in the Game. The reality is not everyone gets an equal voice and that's part of what secures the chain.

    There was no ransom and no theft. Please, read the actual announcement again or any of the posts by the witnesses or token holders who supported v0.22.2. We were acting in the best interests of the value holders to protect the chain. That's our job as witnesses.

    When I point this out, some people argued that Steem Inc. stakes are different as there is a "promise" that these stakes should be used in a certain way.

    That's because it's the truth. If you're not familiar with the history here, please educate yourself on it. All tokens are not the same. The 80% Steemit owned ninja-mined tokes are the problem. Other users did mine early, yes, but they didn't have pre-knowledge prior to the April 1st announcement nor did they make any claims as to how their stake would be use, like Steemit did.

    As to the "lies" blocktrades was not quoted in that article as saying only the steemit inc stake would be left out. That was the reporter's mistaken assumption. I asked Dan about this and asked why he didn't correct the reporter after it was published. He said he's been busy and barely read through it all. Please, hold individuals accountable for their actions, not the entire Hive community. A reporter made an assumption (as I did) about what Hive would exclude. Dan did not correct them. That's it. No lies, just the facts.

    They took it to @steem.dao, along with the stakes from the 326 airdrop excluded users' stake, which is under control of the "community", or in fact basically the top Hive witnesses and whales.

    Witnesses have no control over this beyond the control they have given to them by DPoS to change the protocol. Token holders elect them accordingly. That's how this works. If you take issue with DPoS, please be specific and recognize this isn't unique to Hive as it's the same system Steem uses and BitShares, EOS, EOSIO chains, etc.

    So you guys are taking the ninja-mined stake and using it? LOL.

    If you've been paying attention since 2016, this isn't an LOL. This is the entire point of this stake promised to the community. Yes, there was no formal contract, but many promises made from the 2017 roadmap to multiple interviews. Why is that not take seriously? This is the crux of the entire disagreement and the entire reason Hive exists. These tokens had a promised purpose to fund chain development and now they are being used for that purpose. STEEM holders lost nothing as they still have their STEEM. Those who feel they were treated unfairly can apply via the Hive proposal system.

    it seems that they are the ones who attacked first.

    I do not agree. The initial attack was a direct threat from Justin Sun and Tron to take over the Steem community, it's tokens, and it's applications and move them to Tron. If someone directly threatens you with immediate harm and you respond accordingly, who was the first to attack? The person who made the direct threat or the person who defended themselves from it? The actions (and actual lies, not misunderstood assumptions) since that moment have proven the truth of the matter. The chain was directly attacked, centralized, and censored (twice!). How does this not concern you? How do you believe Steem is still a blockchain?

    Why support something that is no longer a blockchain?

    Please, let's start there with first principles. What do you believe a blockchain is? Why do you think Steem is still a public blockchain?