scrobble.life
#hive

For Hive to succeed, stakeholders need to not be completely delusional cultists

I've been seeing some absolutely delusional comments from Hive stakeholders lately, some forwarded to my DMs on Discord. While I haven't been a stakeholder since 2018, I still hope to see Hive do well. But before that, it's imperative that witnesses, developers, users and stakeholders of Hive accept some hard truths. If you remain in denial, Hive is destined to fail. I don't expect anyone to actually read this, or change any minds, but I'll do it for myself so I don't have to think about this anymore.

So, here are some facts:

  1. The STEEM token is arguably the greatest failure in crypto history. Once a #3 coin, it now languishes at #132. Compared to ETH, it has lost 1,000 times its value, or 99.9%. Its fork, HIVE, is even worse, crashing out of the top 150.

  2. Both STEEM and HIVE are a ticket straight down to hell. Both tokens have seen price appreciation for very short durations, spending a majority of their life crashing against BTC, ETH and fiat.

  3. Steem network represents the greatest consensus failure in crypto history. While PoW networks have been 51% attacked in the past, absolutely nothing has been attacked and centralized for 9 months and running (probably forever). DPoS is a complete joke in the broader crypto world, and no one with any significant value will trust the tarnished security reputation of Hive.

  4. Even if one did like DPoS for some insane reason (well, free transactions is the only one), EOS offers a far superior solution. They have significantly more mature tooling, billions in the war chest, and are working on strong ethereum interoperability and compatibility. While very centralized too, its 20 consensus BPs are reputable entities. Should mention that even with all of that, EOS has also been an abject failure, with bitcoin and ethereum doing several orders of magnitude greater economic activity. But if there was one DPoS chain that has any chance of building a sustainable niche for itself, it's EOS, and it will do this by becoming a complement and friend to ethereum and bitcoin, rather than trying to take any market share. Anyone who thinks they can "kill" ethereum or bitcoin is out of their mind.

  5. Layer 2 is not layer 2 without layer 1 security. No one, NO ONE, or at least no one with any common sense, will use Hive when actual Layer 2 solutions are available on ethereum.

  6. HIVE will likely still see some pumps and dumps, but I hope you'll take advantage of them to exit the market. If you are triggered by this, I would highly recommend hiring a financial advisor for an unbiased opinion on your investment. Hopefully, 4.5 years of very steep losses will be enough to get you to do the right thing. If you're still delusionally stubborn, you should definitely visit a psychiatrist instead. I have been telling people for years now to be very careful powering up STEEM and now HIVE, and received a ton of hate and grief for that. While I don't expect any apologies, I continue to recommend people to look elsewhere - the risk-adjusted returns for HIVE or STEEM are simply abysmal. Outside of quick short-term scalps, this token is useless.

  7. With only 25-30 witnesses on Hive actually breaking even, Hive is on the verge of a complete security meltdown. Luckily, I don't think this is a short-term risk, because cultists suffer from insane sunk-cost fallacy and are happy to keep their fantasies on life support at big losses, but it's not sustainable long-term. (PS: This is the only bit here that is inaccurate. Depending on your server set up, if you only run one server without a backup or seed node, you may be turning a profit up to #50-#60. However, the point stands.)

So what can Hive do to turn things around?

First port of call will be cancel the reward pool, decrease inflation to the bare minimum to keep the chain running. I have more thoughts on how a complete overhaul can take place with a brand new UX, but maybe some other time. Become a bonafide sidechain solution for ethereum (NO, THIS IS NOT LAYER 2. LAYER 2 REQUIRES SECURITY CONSENSUS OF ETHEREUM. I REPEAT, LAYER 2 IS NOT LAYER 2 WITHOUT LAYER 1 SECURITY) by offering a focus on social media and gaming. This requires complete interoperability and compatibility with ethereum and EVM. Why would anyone choose Hive over established DPoS chains like Tron or EOS, though, if they can develop better interop faster? Good question, and I don't have an answer for that. My only hope is that with strong marketing, Hive can build a brand and sustainable niche for itself targeted towards gaming and social. That said, with Immutable now launching a zk Rollup on ethereum with 0.3 second finality, thousands of TPS and <$0.01 in transaction fees, Tron/EOS have their work cut out, let alone Hive.

Build actual layer 2 solutions on Hive, requiring validation or fraud proofs like zk Rollups or optimistic rollups on ethereum. This is the only way to keep the chain sustainable. And no, solutions which do not require consensus are not secure. Might as well just migrate to a pseudo-centralized db at that point. If possible, gut the horrible DPoS and come up with a better consensus mechanism.

Alright, I'm going to stop here. I think I have said enough. Steem & Hive have been an unmitigated disaster, and there is zero evidence to suggest this will not continue to be the case currently. I hope some of the points mentioned here will wake some people up and get them to take action, but that's totally wishful thinking at this time. Nothing short of a complete overhaul from scratch will save Hive and make it a sustainable niche. I wish Hive and its stakeholders the best. I have done my fair share to help you and warn you over the years over the years, I think we can all agree I can do no more. All the best!

Did I mention that Reddit has been beta-testing their tokenization and will soon release widely on ethereum? Oh, yeah, there's that. Why on earth would anyone use a failed platform with 2,000 active users when a long established platform with 400 million active users offers a better experience?

Comments · 11

  • @offgridlife(74)· 2071d

    Blurt is looking like the best option at the moment. Good, positive people over there building an awesome community. Https://Blurt.blog

  • @battleaxe(70)· 2119d
  • @anthonyadavisii(73)· 2121d

    Agree with much of the sentiment but not so much the seemingly prevailing notion of eliminating the reward pool.

    That imho would be a crucial error if we were to follow through with it. If we think our community is niche now, get rid of the author reward pool and you will see things quickly devolve.

    The fanatical cultish die hards should have no problem but predict the users chasing the figurative dollar on a fishing line will lose interest unless they belong to a niche community with solid economics such as @leofinance.

    What I find to be a pity is that Hive was never able to transcend it's own ideological dictates in what is mostly born of anarchist capitalist / libertarian worldviews. Now, don't get me wrong. I love freedom but I am also a strong advocate for order which entails a certain degree of organization or the dirty word *centralization.

    I don't have a problem with centralized structures in place working using coordination and the collective capacity of human thought to accomplish greater objectives.

    It became apparent to me that these adhoc downvote groups and trails were ineffective and inefficient in disposing of the circlejerks, vote collusion and broad exfiltration of value from the chain. (Not to mention some had their own issues that may have trumped those they tried to police)

    Not to toot my own horn too much but I do believe what we had with @steemflagrewards (with @hive-dr) with the broad net we had working against comment spam and the myriad forms of token manipulation on chain could have been so much more.

    Perhaps it will

    As a hobbyist coder with full plate of existing responsibilities, it will happen in my time but the overarching idea is to not only use the project to mitigate token manipulation on chain but also provide moderation services on platforms off chain using a system of tokenization similar to what we had on Steem.

    It seemed the ad hoc groups seemed to think they were able to handle the abuse without a centralized group working as a hivemind of sorts in a decentralized reward structure. I've been accused of being an authoritarian utopian before. Maybe the shoe fits but doesn't change the fact that the thing that proceeded from that vision was proportionally more effective than other moderation entities... Operating at a fraction of the cost.

    Now, I don't mean to suggest that moderation is the ONLY issue. There are other vectors of significant value loss that should also be addressed. My opinion, based on some data is the DAO is one of them.

    Edit: Sorry noticed some typographic issues and felt the need to clarify so updated

  • @misterengagement(57)· 2124d

    Thank you for your engagement on this post, you have recieved ENGAGE tokens.

  • @bashadow(70)· 2124d

    An interesting read over-all, I enjoyed the exchange between you and @kyle, I myself am just a user, not a developer, not an investor, not even really a crypto enthusiast. I did have a few question:

    history of critical consensus failure like Hive

    you mentioned critical consensus failure of hive, is this something I need to be concerned with and what failures? Hive had the initial creation Hard Fork from Steem, this did come with a few glitches, but I do not recall any significant failures. Yes HF24 has and did have some issue and that short sidechain split but the glitches are being worked on and the sidefork was taken care of pretty quickly from what I read.

    why on earth would anyone use Hive which is basically just a far worse and more insecure EOS?

    What makes Hive insecure, I use hive in a social manner, I do recall on steem a lot of people accidently giving out their keys, I have seen a few recent post on Hive about phishing and keys being given out to people where they should have known better. Is it the keys part that is insecure or are there ways and means for people to hack and obtain my keys with out me ever giving them out?

    People and developers don't use Hive because it's bad

    When you say people don't use Hive what do you mean? I am just a user, I actually like and enjoy the social side of Hive, there is a fairly large group, (at a guess about 4500), that use Hive in a social type manner. It is the social side that help the developers test and try out their application, a built in beta test group.

    I think that once Hive is fully separated out from Steem, and starts to go off in a different direction that things will improve, but it will take time. First HF done, next one to finish the foundation layer. If Hive is to succeed we need to avoid pitfalls and mistakes that were made by steem/steemit. The chasing of the reward pool, the constant changing of the economic layer needs to come to a stop for Hive, it needs to have time to develop, time for investor to see and understand that the economics of Hive are not going to be changed or altered with every hard fork.

    Like I said I did enjoy the post, those were just three of the things I really did not understand, but for an alternative to all the centralized social media outlets, I must say I do enjoy the social aspects of Hive.

    When facebook first came out I tried it-didn't like it When Reddit first came out I tried it-didn't like it Twitter the same. Google hangouts-the same.

    With Steem I liked it, then things went wonky, Hive I still like it, if people can avoid the mistakes of Steem, I will still be around in another year or two.

    !ENGAGE 25

  • @enforcer48(75)· 2124d

    Guess it's all too late now.

  • @lordbutterfly(80)· 2124d

    I tend to agree with most of this... Top stakeholders are extremely inert and im not not holding my breath for any change.

    I did do extremely well for myself with Steem and HIVE though. The price has been tanking all this time but at the same time i 10x my portfolio and im at a point where i comfortably invest 1000+ USD into multiple other things just with what i earned from STEEM and HIVE. Had i been invested in any other token for that duration of 2-3 years id be at a loss or on equal terms.

    So moneywise what you said could be true for large stake holders like you yourself were, but not for all of us.

  • @klye(75)· 2125d

    "With only 25-30 witnesses on Hive actually breaking even"

    I'm rank #47 and make a $20 monthly profit so I think your calculations are a bit off.

    "No one, NO ONE, or at least no one with any common sense, will use Hive when actual Layer 2 solutions are available on ethereum."

    I mean, if you're inclined to pay inflated operations / transaction fees that are considerably slower with ETH over HIVE don't let me convince you otherwise. Go spend what is considered a decent sum of money in some places per action.

    "Anyone who thinks they can "kill" ethereum or bitcoin is out of their mind."

    Arguably ETH died as an actually immutable and worth while blockchain after they forked off to cover their asses after the DAO "hack". BTC won't be killed, I agree with you there.. but it will certainly be left to fade into obscurity as far greater technology is released as POW is not only wasteful but favours corporate takeover of chain security.

    "Even if one did like DPoS for some insane reason"

    lol, yeah DPOS has proven itself to be a hell of an experiment if one glosses over the obvious shortcomings of the system.. DPOS systems could certainly use some more thought and governance sharing going forward.

    "Steem network represents the greatest consensus failure in crypto history."

    It wasn't a matter of consensus failure so much as the usage of the what some would consider unfairly horded network stake created by steemit inc as a fail safe for them to be able to take over the network if need be. In a DPOS system that had a wide distribution right from the start shit like that wouldn't have been possible.

    "Both STEEM and HIVE are a ticket straight down to hell."

    Ah shit, now here I thought all the adultery and degenerate life choices were my plane titcket to hell.. Turns out it was my involvement in graphene based blockchain tech that sealed the deal. I'll be sure to send postcards.

    "I've been seeing some absolutely delusional comments from Hive stakeholders lately," "So, here are some facts:"

    You couldn't even fact check your own facts but to be fair I support your rant and FUD. This whole post made me smile a little bit after seeing how polarized you've become after the post steem/sun yuchen drama. Some of your points or arguments certainly allow for a person to latch onto where your perception of everything sits but at the end of the day the way you've written this post just makes it seem like you're doin' a rage quit pity party while at the same time accepting income from a blockchain you're trying your damndest to turn people away from. (insert ironic trumpet noise here)

    If you're honestly worried about the price trend in HIVE then you're looking at it from the wrong angle. Personally hope the price continues to dump to drive down my overall cost average on HIVE so I can hold a larger chunk of bag ready to catch next years venture capital boom that will come in on the coat tails of upcoming "killer apps" leveraging the zero cost and near instant transaction validation few if any other chains allow. If you lost cash on steem or hive I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but HIVE price ain't one.

    All and all good rant though. Shaking out some weak hands in favour of that crypto going to someone else who isn't afraid for a 1-3 year hold until the ecosystem has a chance to build up into something formidable isn't a bad thing.

    Anyways, good to see a post from you even if it was filled with whine. :D

  • @inertia(75)· 2126d

    I guess.

  • @discovery-it(69)· 2126d

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  • @phage93(69)· 2126d

    Sad true story...

    I've always done powerups in my small way, but I've been thinking about closing everything for weeks now

    !discovery 45