scrobble.life
#steem

Learning to love the voting power equilibrium point change

As noted here, the 100% voting power equilibrium point is being reduced from 40 votes per day to 5 votes per day in version 0.14.0. Among the core developers, I was a strong proponent of this change. In this post, I'll explain my reasoning.

The primary reason people are concerned is that, while "5 votes per day" is a technically accurate description of the equilibrium point, it is also highly misleading.

Leaky bucket dynamics 101

One of the fundamental principles of Steem's economic system can be described as "one Steem Power, one vote." The problem is that (obviously) the design of a social media website involves each user making multiple votes over time, unpredictably, as they have free time and find things they like.

The system is clearly unfair if Bob, a user with 10 SP, votes a thousand times and gets the same voice as Alice, a user with 1000 SP who votes ten times. The way we handle this is a leaky bucket system: Each user account is a bucket which holds up to 10,000 units of voting power -- we might imagine this as 10,000 mL of water. The bucket dynamics are as follows:

  • Each user's bucket gets a steady inflow of water at a rate of R units per second (R is the same for all users).
  • When a user's bucket is full at 10,000 units, its inflow spills over and is wasted.
  • When the user votes, the volume drops by some percentage p (p is the same for all users); the user's effective Steem Power for that particular vote is multiplied by the amount of water removed.

These are competing forces on the bucket's water level: Voting and spillover pull the water level down, while the inflow pushes the water level up. If the user votes at a constant rate, the water level will eventually settle at a point where the forces are in balance.

Parameters

The 100% voting power equilibrium point, vote_regeneration_per_day for those following the source code, is the voting rate where the forces are in balance at the 10,000 mL level. The integration window, STEEMIT_VOTE_REGENERATION_SECONDS, is the amount of time it takes for a totally empty bucket to refill to 10,000 mL; it is remaining unchanged at five days. The parameters R and p are completely determined by vote_regeneration_per_day and STEEMIT_VOTE_REGENERATION_SECONDS.

Effectively this change reduces vote_regeneration_per_day from 40 to 5. (Yes, the actual patch is more complicated, because it also changed from hard-coded numbers to a global property constant, and fixed a rounding issue.)

The real problem

And now we can get to the crux of the problem.

  • A water level less than 10,000 mL seems bad, because it reduces the power of each vote.
  • A water level less than 10,000 mL is not actually bad, because the reduction in the value of each vote is exactly balanced by your increased number of votes.
  • A water level less than 10,000 mL is actually good, because the real enemy is spillover; every mL of spillover is wasted influence you didn't use, and staying below 10,000 mL keeps you out of spillover territory.

While it's technically accurate to describe 5 votes per day as the maximum number of maximally effective votes, 5 votes per day is better described as the minimum number of votes for a user to be given a full voice.

Now suddenly it's clear why 5 votes per day is a better threshold: It redistributes the ability to grant curation rewards away from heavy users and bots to more casual users.

A parting question

Suppose Alice and Bob each have 1000 SP. Alice votes 5 times a day and Bob votes 40 times a day. Should Bob get eight times as much influence and eight times as many curation rewards as Alice, or should the system give these two users an equal voice?

If you believe that Alice and Bob should have an equal voice, then you, too, are actually a supporter of this change!

Comments · 27

  • @steemitboard(66)· 2699d

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  • @avvah(51)· 3367d

    Where did you go?

  • @linkback-bot-v0(55)· 3638d
  • @abit(71)· 3641d

    Suppose Alice and Bob each have 1000 SP. Alice votes 5 times a day and Bob votes 40 times a day. Should Bob get eight times as much influence and eight times as many curation rewards as Alice, or should the system give these two users an equal voice?

    IMO Bob should get more because he seems to have done much more work than Alice.

  • @burnin(63)· 3641d

    Here's a way to see what kind of impact this change would have if it was active since the beginning.

    Make your own conclusions. :)

  • @liondani(70)· 3642d

    Is the target changing from 40 votes to 5 a better simulation of... reddit ? (reddit is closer to 1?)

  • @everittmickey(53)· 3643d

    Good Post. Good explanation. Let's hope it works.

  • @james-show(59)· 3643d

    Actually I am a big supporter of the change. I even think it should be a target of 1 vote per day(or even max of 5 day voting power in a single vote), and then the GUI should ask - "In how many votes do you want to split your 1 day [5 day] voting power?" It gives the ability to concentrate you vote in a single punch (good for say an author who does not really want to curate, but wants to give a max boost to his single daily post), also gives the ability for minnows/dolphins to concentrate its voting impact on just a few posts.

  • @breathe3000(50)· 3643d

    How it Works Every time a post gets paid, 50% of the payout is directed toward those who contributed the most to increasing the posts payout. To maximize your potential payout from voting you should follow these simple rules:

    Only vote on posts that you believe others will also vote for. Vote as early as possible after the content is posted. Don’t vote on content that is already popular Acquire as much vesting STEEM Power as possible The less STEEM Power you have the more important it is for you to focus your votes on a few good posts rather than spreading your vote thin. In particular, users with small amounts of vesting STEEM should:

    Vote on content others haven’t voted for, to maximize the percentage increase in voting Vote on fewer posts, the more you vote the more diluted your STEEM Power. I agree that we need to think more about balanse and seeks equilibrium. But I do not agree with this decision. According to the rules in the documentation we have to vote before anyone else. I'm not having a large number of Steem power. Receives award for coaching 0.001 on popular posts. Why people voted five votes per day will get more? I want you removed the rule where you have to vote fastest. Remove tranding. Because people voting five times a day. Do not be a long time to read and look good posts. It is best if all the charges according to their vote following list. This solution would be more honest. Because there are hundreds of good writers. Because of these new rules for many there will be no more space. Many did not receive a place in the sun ...

  • @lemooljiang(76)· 3643d

    The rewards is the same as 5 votes and 40 votes in return, which one do you choose?

  • @williambanks(70)· 3643d

    Well congratulations. You've now killed any reason to keep curating manually. And you've turned voting up commentary and content you agree with into a mandatory business decision.

    In fact you've specifically stated that some hipster twatbeard who hops on and spends 5 minutes to upvote 5 posts is MORE valuable to the platform than those of us who are treating the platform like it's their day job.

    @theoretical your analogy is what's leaking here.

    Fuck spillover, that's the price you pay for not being involved. Making it easier to not be involved, doesn't do anything to help the platform. For the platform to grow you need to incentivize involvement, i.e engagement.

    So here's how this plays out...

    With upvotes now limited to 5 per day. It makes the MOST sense to vote 5 times per day using a simple script that ONLY upvotes the posting with the highest "bonus" amount, with the least remaining time to expire, and has the least number of voters. Because each vote "really matters" now.

    This means the change you've made is going to plummet the price, it's kiling user engagement.

    Right now the price of SBD is already in the toilet. The price of steem isn't doing so great either, but at least it's predominantly locked away as steempower.

    You've incentivized SBD burning but at the expense of the social relationships that made that SBD worth anything in the first place.

    You want to raise the value of steem & SBD? Change the conversion rate from 7 day moving average to market price at time of fulfillment. That removes the bagholder risk from a week of you guys tinkering with crap blindly like this.

    This risk, "OMFG what are they going to pull next???", is what's pushing down the price right now. Not anything else. This is the voice we get as minnows and dolphins. We can power down and sell at a discount now if we believe the changes will end up badly. People don't think the platform is going to be worthwhile two years out, so they're voting with their wallets and dumping as fast as they can, at any price they can get.

    It also means they aren't going to invest real money either.

    @dantheman You've missed the whole point of your own damned white paper as far I'm concerned. Which is shocking because I've always felt that whitepaper was a stroke a genius!

    Let me explain this to you...

    Upvoting and following is how we mortals, BUILD social networks. Upvoting IS how we show appreciation to people who say some insightful stuff whether we agree or not. With enough opportunities to upvote, it doesn't matter if we toss a few "appreciation votes" at our friends and even a few at our "frenemies".

    Now instead of 40 chances a day to spread a bit of recognition around, I get 5. Yeah sure I can use the slider. But then if I do that, I have to mentally justify that decision. This is mental loading and turns upvoting into tipping which is exactly what you said you didn't want.

    The correct solution is modify the weights so votes regenerate MUCH faster.

    A full power vote every 30 mins would increase engagement to crack like levels of addiction.
    With more votes to spread around, more stuff gets upvoted. Sure it dilutes the hell out of the $10k daily posts. But it also raises the value of everyone else who is seeking some little bit of recognition or validation. It also causes the redistribution to suddenly become much more fair, because there are no more $10k posts but hundreds of $100 posts and thousands of $10 - $90 posts, and maybe millions of $1 posts.

    But with a choice of only 5 a day, or having to mentally justify a change to weight on that slider "just in case", it is going to put mental loading into the equation that will just reduce how often I choose to vote. It makes us stingier, because now it's no longer an emotional decision, it's a business decision.

    The end result of this change is that all voting turns into a simple calculation of $/hr based exclusively on the bonus amount of the post. With almost no votes for commentary (which yeah is how I and several others make the bulk of our money).

    Sadly the math will be hard for a human, but trivial for a bot. That's the curators side, but the content creators side just got much, much worse!

    With promotions, content creators are forced to burn their SBD in order to earn SBD. However since it is highly unlikely that they will earn more than they burn, they will have almost no chance of earning back what they spend on advertising err excuse me, promotion.

    If creator are losing money with each post, then they will take their content elsewhere. While those who have dollars to toss into promotion are going to make much, much more money for their investment.

    The top 5 advertisers will easily lock up 80% of the limited "fixed distribution" amount. This will mean that the max earnings an actual human can expect will drop into negative territory. Minnows, Dolphins and whales alike.

    You're forcing content creators to subsidize advertisers.

    Congratulations, you just sold out in the most literal definition of the word.

    You're deluding yourself into thinking that the net effect of the changes over the last month are going to work long term.

    You're hoping that this platform floods with people with money to burn. You're hoping advertisers will buy up SBD, pushing it up to near dollar parity again, then burn it in order to advertise to us.

    The part you're missing here is that steem and SBD only have the value WE impart to it. People will leave if we can't be heard. If we are being drowned out by the voices of advertisers and being forced to subsidize them, you'll see mass attrition. Lack of engagement is going to make that even worse.

    If the minnows leave, the whales have literally nothing. Advertisers aren't going to try and sell to a bunch of other advertisers, so they'll leave too. Might be a nice spike in the price short term though as people work this out for themselves and figure out where else they can go to be heard.

    It's your platform, you can do whatever you want, so be just be honest about it. That's all I'm saying.

    You're implementing an advertiser subsidy on the backs of those who can least afford it.
    You're pro-taxation got it!

    I encourage you to roll this change back and just adjust the rate we move from empty back to full power to 30 minutes across the board. You wouldn't be able to handle the traffic if you did that. But maybe that's the point?

  • @dennygalindo(59)· 3643d

    It's all in how it's described. I like it now that I think of it as a super vote option! https://steemit.com/feedback/@dennygalindo/prospect-theory-5-votes-a-day-good-just-marketed-wrong

  • @liberosist(72)· 3643d

    The mathematics are sound, but this proposal is at complete odds with the reality of Steemit. Today, Steemit is heading towards more diverse content because there are a handful of human curators who spend time, dig for good content, and upvote several posts a day.

    This proposal massively disincentivizes actual curators, and transfers power over to casual curators who vote less 5 posts per day. These are the type of users who check out what's trending and vote on what they like.

    Net result - the curation community will come to a halt, the Trending page be more predictable than it ever was.

  • @biophil(67)· 3643d

    If you're going to use my leaky bucket analogy, you should credit me. If you want. https://steemit.com/steem-help/@biophil/the-ultimate-guide-to-voting-power-with-cartoons-formulas-and-code-references

    Edit: it looks like I may have gotten a number wrong; I may have said it takes 7 days to regenerate 0 to 100, but you're saying it takes 5. I will check and make an updated post when possible.

  • @thefinanceguy(63)· 3643d

    Thanks for the information.

  • @norbu(70)· 3643d

    Man I am more confused now than I was before. Would some one just write a post to let the lay user figure this out in simple terms? We talk of mass adoption and this complexity of the curation system might be an obstacle otherwise. I consider my self an ancient steemer (2 months old!) but this is confusing as hell!

  • @dennygalindo(59)· 3643d

    **This example makes me like it less.**Of course the guy spending time to vote 40 times should get more than someone who logs on for 5 minutes and makes 5 votes. We want activity. That said The reason I might like the rule is that I think having too many full powered whale votes disrupts the system. Now where many whales will be under 100percent they might rock the boat less.

    Interestingly I think more people would like this rule of you said you get 5 super votes that can you 20prct of your voting power or you can have 50 votes that use 2pwrxemt each. you should frame it like we are gaining something, super votes! The scroll at should default to 1 percent the.ln 100Perxwnt should say are you sure you want to use a super vote?

  • @shenanigator(68)· 3643d

    Benefits, Problems, and Solutions

    Benefits

    - Minnows will now feel like they have more power to influence payouts. With the target changing from 40 votes to 5, a single 100% upvote is now 8x stronger, making minnows feel like their vote makes more of a difference. If you can currently place 40 votes worth $0.10 each, with this update, you'll be able to place:

    • 40 votes worth $0.10 (at 12.5% slider power).
    • 20 votes worth $0.20 (at 25% power).
    • 10 votes worth $0.40 (at 50% power).
    • 5 votes worth $0.80 (at 100% power).
    • Almost any other vote combination worth a total of $4.00.

    - Non-bot u​sers will now have more effect on payouts. A consequence of that change - the relative power of bots will decrease. Bots don't have a set schedule, so they can vote whenever they want. People are limited to their free time. Many users don't spend enough time on Steemit each day to use their full allotment of voting power. Now, even if you only spend a few minutes a day on Steemit, placing five votes, you can have the same voting influence as a bot (assuming equal SP).

    - It gives users more freedom. If a user wants to place five votes each day, she can do so at 100%. She also has the option to place: 10 votes at 50% 20 votes at 25% 25 votes at 20% 50 votes at 10% 100 votes at 5% (for those who spend A LOT of time on Steemit)

    Problems

    - Simplicity of use decreases. Imagine someone new to Steemit. He likes a post and goes to upvote it. But now he has to use this slider "What the heck is this about?" he says. We want to make Steemit as simple as possible for new users, but this makes it that much more complicated.

    - A 1% vote from a high-SP whale will often be too big. Right now, a whale like @ned often upvotes comments/posts at 1 or 2%. After this change goes into effect, those votes will be 8x stronger.

    - Whales will now be able to give 8x the power to a vote. This massive potential vote strength may cause a problem with collusion - friends often upvoting each other with ​high-powered votes. However, I don't think this will be a problem because votes are extremely transparent, and the community will call them out on this behavior.

    - Users will likely upvote their posts at 100% leaving less voting power for the content of others. They may upvote themselves as well as close friends at 100% and upvote other people at lower percentages.

    Solutions

    Problem - Simplicity of use decreases. Solution = Make the slider bar opt-in. To use the slider bar, one has to go to their settings and click to turn it on. Currently, the slider does appear until a user has about 300SP, but I still think it needs to be opt-in.

    Problem - A 1% vote from a high-SP whale will often be too big. Solution = Allow more flexibility in the slider bar. Let a whale type in a number anywhere from 0.1% to 100% in multiples of 0.1

    Problem - Whales will now be able to give 8x the power to a vote. Solution = If this is ​a problem (I don't think it is), community policing/accountability should do the trick.

    Problem - Users will likely upvote their posts at 100% leaving less voting power for the content of others. Solution = Disallow upvoting of one's own content. Note: ​I don't like this solution because it decreases the incentive to hold Steem Power.

  • @burnin(63)· 3643d

    If Bob votes six times a day, every day, for a while, should the system give Bob any voice at all? I feel the threshold is too low for that drought.

  • @timcliff(74)· 3643d

    I am still undecided on how I feel about this feature. I keep seeing pros and cons, depending on how user's alter their behavior once the change is implemented. Right now, the biggest argument against it seems to be this. Do you have a good response?

    While users can effectively still vote on 40 posts like they do today by reducing the voting power they spend on each vote - what is stopping the average 'heavyweight' voter from just finding the 4 posts that they think will have the best chance of curation rewards for the day, voting on those, and being done? Doesn't the new system encourage users to vote on less content?

  • @smooth(74)· 3643d

    Suppose Alice and Bob each have 1000 SP. Alice votes 5 times a day and Bob votes 40 times a day. Should Bob get eight times as much influence and eight times as many curation rewards as Alice, or should the system give these two users an equal voice?

    Excellent question and the answer seems not as clear as the post suggests. Bob is investing more effort than Alice.

    What about two people with 1000 SP, one of whom signs on every day and votes 40 times, the other is absent for a year, signs on and votes once? Conceptually, the bucket model says they should have equal influence, assuming a large enough bucket (the current parameters don't allow a year of course, but they do equalize because more- and less-absent users). I think they should not have the same influence.

  • @eatgrits(44)· 3643d

    I would have upvoted this, but now I think I'll save it :)

    Seriously though, it's changes like this that make this system more robust (fair)

  • @daveks(83)· 3643d

    Ok, this makes sense!

  • @trogdor(64)· 3643d

    I have to admit that I don't fully understand your point about Alice and Bob. Suppose Alice discovers 5 valuable posts with her curation and Bob discovers 40 valuable posts with his curation. Why should they receive the same curation rewards, when we agree that discovering valuable content is a service to the platform, and Bob has discovered 8 times as much content for the platform?

  • @fingolfin(63)· 3643d

    I feel like this will just lead to people voting less in general. People will vote for less content, the trending page will become less diverse as people will only choose to vote for a sure thing. Less new voices will be discovered in favor of promoting the few authors you already enjoy.

  • @carlidos(62)· 3643d

    Hmm does that mean the pay out will be.... Less or more the same ? If Alice and bob have the same equal voice does that mean they get the equal share of payout?