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#steem

Downvote Pool Deep Dive

downvote_pool_title.jpg

Hello Steemians, I’m @vandeberg, Senior Blockchain Engineer at Steemit and today I want to do a more technical deep dive in to the proposed downvote pool in the Steem EIP. One of the core tenants of Steem is the belief in the wisdom of the crowd to curate and reward good content. The current economic model limits every account's ability to earn by a resource called "voting mana". Whenever your vote, whether it be an upvote, downvote, or changing your vote, some of this voting mana is used up. When it is all gone, your votes no longer impact rewards.

Of these three actions, only one of them rewards the user, upvoting. Neither changing your vote nor downvoting can reward you. It then makes sense that if you greedily optimize your return on investment, you would only upvote content as downvoting it would be a waste of your precious voting mana.

However, downvoting is an integral piece of the curation process. An ideal solution would incentivize downvoting with rewards, but we have yet to come up with a solution that is fair and not exploitable. In the meantime, we believe allowing users to have some downvotes without consuming their voting mana is a reasonable solution. While it does not incentivize curating through downvotes, it removes the direct cost of downvoting, which should make downvoting a more economically viable option.

What we propose to do is to create a separate downvote pool that can contain its own mana up to some percentage of the mana that the upvote pool can contain. Downvotes will be taken from the downvote pool first, and then the upvote pool once the downvote pool has been consumed. The downvote pool will follow the same rules as the upvote pool, regenerating over five days and filling instantly and proportionally to new Steem Power and delegations.

We think having a downvote pool that is 10-25% the size of the voting mana pool would serve as a good starting point. The good way to think of this is that a certain number of downvotes are free before you are charged for downvoting. Charged only in the sense that you are losing potential rewards you could have gotten from upvoting. That number needs to be high enough to make a difference, but not too high that it becomes exploitable.

The obvious alternative solution is to have two entirely separate pools for upvotes and downvotes. We believe this is a bad idea because it would allow the reward system to devolve into a zero sum game without consequence. Each account could award and remove an equal number of reward shares to content. If everyone did this, then no content would have any reward shares and would then not get any reward.

Furthermore, there are users out there that understand this change is adding resources for them to use and will use whatever resources they have available. A downvote against someone else is a small upvote for everyone else. We expect some users will use all their downvotes to maximize their returns. In an effort to curb that behavior, we are recommending to not create a full separate pool.

This hybrid approach captures the best of both approaches. It does not give too many additional resources to users that will use/abuse all that we give them and frees up normal users that may not be downvoting to do so without financial penalty.

Let me know if you have any questions in the comments section below, or if there is another aspect of the blockchain that I should explore next.

vandeberg post signature.jpg

Comments · 87

  • @steemitboard(66)· 2594d

    Congratulations @vandeberg! You received a personal award!

    Happy Birthday! - You are on the Steem blockchain for 3 years!

    You can view your badges on your Steem Board and compare to others on the Steem Ranking

    Vote for @Steemitboard as a witness to get one more award and increased upvotes!
  • @coininstant(69)· 2630d

    Your flagged because I was flagged by @berniesanders / @themarkymark / @iflagtrash / @abusereports Work on getting this scum off steemit!

  • @goldmanmorgan(59)· 2635d

    I'll try to read it again later, but you lost me somewhere around

    One of the core tenants of Steem is the belief in the wisdom of the crowd to curate and reward good content
  • @muppetdingdong(39)· 2641d

    There needs to be bot detection that automatically downvotes bots to make them economically inviable or something. Your fucking bot problem is ruining the platform, full stop. Anyone supporting bots has simply found a way to game the system to make their bot profitable. This is hands down the biggest issue Steemit has on a game theory level that they need to fix, and until they do, it's very unlikely Steemit will succeed long term because real people will abandon the platform.

  • @keepinitreal(50)· 2646d

    @vandenberg It would also really help the community to try to find a way to stop Upvotes simply because the person is popular. People are upvoting nonsense because they know hundreds of others are going to be upvoting it as well and causes a chain reaction. This turns a lot of Steemit away because they are looking for a platform that rewards creativity and uniqueness.....not popularity due to the wallet amount. Just a thought.

  • @mugumehelena(30)· 2646d

    It would be better to have the downvotes separate from the upvotes..Thank you for this update...

  • @kawaiicrush(66)· 2646d

    If you are a paid Steemit employee why wouldn't you decline payout from the "peoples" reward pool? 2nd to that same exact question minus 3 years to the tune of $5390.70 aka,

    https://steemit.com/introduceyourself/@proskynneo/finally-coming-out-of-the-shadows-an-introduction-from-a-dev

  • @sammosk(71)· 2647d

    Why is that footer so bloody ugly? I can't trust someone who presents such a lossy image with lousy compression as a individual that has any experience or inclination in "blockchain" "engineering" and "delivering" "a" "decent" "product". Perhaps you should try delivering consistent updates and establishing a pivot style workflow or even just a damn trello board that is exposed to the general public to build up the trust in the community and to show that you have our best interests at heart. (cause you never push updates to git, ever).

    My second statement is regarding the reward on this post, I do not for one second believe that you work for free, how dare you not deny rewards on this post as part of steemit team you should not be receiving any beneficiary from the reward pool as you are taken care of by the team. aka Stinc. Aka stop stealing from my reward pool.

    This puts a bad stink,(stinc?) over steemit as a whole. When the LEAD DEVELOPER FOR THE CHAIN, robs it.

    Please fix.

  • @detro10(42)· 2647d

    Cool. Love steem so far. Glad to be involved in the future.

  • @volum12v(25)· 2647d

    You are right, the outside world like him even the Internet became king while we fled from outer science to seek freedom and honesty without poisoned food because some people love it with money and hate some because they are right and from here we conclude that the outside world became in the virtual science. Become a harmless kingdom

  • @coininstant(69)· 2647d

    Here take a downvote and pay me for it! thanks! I just don't like the idea of paying people to downvote, that would cause an enormous problem where we get bots that attack and suck even more money just to attack because they hate steem and love eos or whateve project they were sent from to destroy us! You know what I would do if this were the case I would make a down vote bot because this would just give me the incentive!. See what I mean. And then the top bid bot guys will make even more of the steem??? lol Then everyone would! This could open pandora's steem chest! lol

  • @klevn(50)· 2648d

    most don't want to engage in flag wars, which is toxic in its inception.

    remove the ability of abuse, but don't expect common users to benefit from this system of downvoting.

    i want to know how this will help from retaliation downvotes.

    i disagreed with berniesanders and lost money on multiple posts unrelated to the conversation. here are the two posts, and if you look at my blog you'd notice they even downvoted some guy i resteemed.

    https://steemit.com/flatearth/@klevn/ball-earthers-change-perspective-to-make-theory-work

    https://steemit.com/steemit/@klevn/i-make-up-my-mind-all-the-time-sometimes-i-change-it

    https://steemit.com/flatearth/@flatearth/apollo-wires-and-other-blatant-nasa-fakery

    i don't see how this will help that. I literally got 100+ downvotes on an unrelated posts from berniebots.

    so in my opinion, we need a jury voted in, a jury of invested steemians with a decent sized following, that a sizable majority agree is fair, made up of normal steemians.

    if enough people vote to complain about someone, it is brought to the jury.

    this downvoting thing as a way to counteract bad actors only works on a small scale, it fails in the face of bad whales.

  • @treyball(69)· 2648d

    This doesn't seem like something that will encourage people to buy more steem. It actually seems like it will drive people away. Just my two cents for what's it worth.

  • @whack.science(73)· 2648d

    All of a sudden, some whales are concerned how downvotes will impact small users and will it drive them away. Well, fuck off, many of you are not upvoting small users and act like they do not exist at all because you gotta have your ROI, and now all of a sudden u think you gonna care about them because you can downvote.

    Stfu and kill your egos.

  • @steemitboard(66)· 2648d

    Congratulations @vandeberg! You have completed the following achievement on the Steem blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

    You got more than 300 replies. Your next target is to reach 400 replies.

    You can view your badges on your Steem Board and compare to others on the Steem Ranking If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word STOP

    Vote for @Steemitboard as a witness to get one more award and increased upvotes!
  • @freebornangel(72)· 2648d

    Count me in on the downvote pool. Two per day would effectively double my downvotes. All hail, @steemflagrewards' downvoting trail! (And smooth's rendition of this pool.)

    I'd be remiss if i failed to state that a vote cap that affects ~70 accounts, the ones with the most to gain from steem's use as a currency/store of value, solves steem's controlling issue more elegantly, imo. Join it with curation that rewards finding 'good' content earlier than others, and we might actually reward content creation/curation. This proof of wallet sucks, as attested to before we took this little detour to ease onboarding/accumulate even more stake.

    With mira taking server costs to insignificant levels, maybe we can extend our crowd of witnesses' wisdom a little,...

  • @gray00(58)· 2648d

    I think flags are vital to Steem sustainability. I just think they cause a lot of damage because of the lack of education about them in the UI space as well as general lack of education how steem works, why it's decentralized, who runs it. and so on and so fourth. This user shared steemit to millions of followers on mainstream platform Russia Today, Yet was flagged off the platform over a simple misunderstanding about when to enable rewards and what content is acceptable to whom (he shared a youtuber's video with a comment about it) @keiserreport One thought, how do we mitigate the damage done to steem by the flags? If that's hiding flags from UI, removing rewards($ and numbers) from UI for posts (only show votes) or other measures. I would probably be in favor of those measures if taken by front ends. At least as an experimental test.

  • @sameernawab(67)· 2648d

    @vandeberg why you guys are so much taking care of downvote ? .. you think that this way you can improve steemit? please for god say stop this.. and save steemit ... :( hard fork is worst ideas.. implement old steemit again and you will see healthy growth again.

  • @dksart(66)· 2648d

    This is a good idea, the only thing I would add is making down voting anonymous, because when you down vote a post chances are the person you down voted will simply down vote your post as retaliation, I think most people will still not down vote posts even with this hybrid system, especially people with not much STEEM Power, because they will fear retaliation...

    Not knowing who down voted your post would be much better because there would be no retaliation wars, unless of course that person wants to let you know in the comments.

  • @knircky(73)· 2648d

    It good that we are thinking about this.

    i think overall downvotes are bad. They tend to create a lot more damage then good and create really bad user experience.

    We have lost many great content producers because of downvotes.

    I urge you to keep this in mind.

    Even if I just get 20% if my voting power as free downvotes, i can now run around and take money away from people and would have to do this, in order to maximize my rewards. This will lead to people downvoting each other and will create a culture of downvote wars, that can be nasty.

    Please keep this in mind.

  • @anaclark(64)· 2649d

    Thank you for this information. I'm new to Steemit and have found the community to be very warm and not lacking in mentorship.

  • @frostyamber(64)· 2649d

    Thanks for the update and explanation of what you're all trying to do. :D I'm not very tech savvy and some of the other updates were a bit confusing, this one cleared up a few things that I'd misunderstood previously and I doubt I'm the only one that this post has helped. :D

    May I make a suggestion that is totally off topic for a moment? I've had a lot of trouble resteeming some posts that have more than 99 votes because the resteem button is right in the same spot as the triangle that shows you the most recent voters, and I'm probably not the only one having this issue. Would it be possible to make a bit more room so the two buttons aren't overlapping, which will make it easier to resteem?

    Sorry if this isn't the right spot to make the suggestion, I'm not sure where the right spot would be though. :D

    God bless you and the whole steemit team for your hard work and dedication to making this site as user friendly as possible for everyone, from the tech geeks, to the tech idiots. :D Have an awesome day! :D

  • @jbgarrison72(50)· 2649d

    Here's the problem...

    Only whales can get away with downvoting anything that is significant. Thus, the value of downvoting does not end up practically having anything to do with "the wisdom of the crowd.

    If the "wisdom of the crowd" were the primary desired resource to harvest... further increasing the ammo of a few whales (minnows dare not use the extra bullets given them because they already fear to get into a "downvote" battle with anyone as it is) is going to put Steemit even farther away from that intended outcome.

  • @spectrumecons(75)· 2649d

    Hi @vandeberg, thanks for taking the time to explain the proposed downvote pool.

    Downvotes will be taken from the downvote pool first, and then the upvote pool once the downvote pool has been consumed.

    When would the downvote pool be considered consumed? If it operates like voting power, it will decrease as a percentage of existing vote power i.e. 2% reduction at 100% VP and 1% reduction at 50%. Therefore, we will have very tiny downvotes before we start consuming the voting pool/power.

    Alternatively, I was thinking maybe downvotes just come from a downvote pool and not at all from the upvote pool. This would limit abuse but provide incentive for at least some downvoting. In this case you could increase it to a bit higher than 25% of the upvote pool.

  • @nigelmarkdias(67)· 2649d

    Really? Is this the shape of things to come?

    Why not completely eliminate self-voting for everything?

    @vandeberg @elipowell @andrarchy Posted using Partiko iOS

  • @valued-customer(75)· 2649d

    I appreciate very much your cogent explanations written in layman's terms.

    That being said, I really don't understand how you guys have failed to grasp basic social functions as blatantly as you have. The DV pool will not insulate minnows from retaliation, so won't enable the to downvote safely. It will enable censors and bullies to do what they already do, but do more of it at less cost.

    I'll let the downvotes and comments on this reply prove my point.

    Thanks!

  • @arcange(79)· 2649d

    Congratulations @vandeberg! Your post was mentioned in the Steem Hit Parade in the following categories:

    • Comments - Ranked 1 with 212 comments
    • Pending payout - Ranked 2 with $ 147,67
  • @artopium(67)· 2649d

    The ability to downvote already creates a dystopia in which those who have the most money can censor those who don't. And now you want to make that easier?

    Every single tiny change made to the blockchain and to the mechanics of Steemit send waves of uncertainty through the economy and in the long run is VERY bad for Steem. Stop tinkering. There's only TWO things Steemit Inc should be focusing on

    MIRA

    PRESS RELEASES

    Do you guys even have a marketing director?

    steemit_trends.png

  • @wakeupnd(69)· 2649d

    #1 Question: how would this help steemit/steem grow?

    Wouldn't more downvoting cause more drama and conflict on the platform making people want to leave or not join?

    The majority of downvoting I've seen are bigger accounts downvoting smaller ones. That's why I see downvoting as more of a bullying tactic than what it was actually designed for with making sure whales can't rape the reward pool.

    I think you should focus more on protecting the reward pool from rapes rather handing out free downvotes or WMDs as I would call them to everyone on the platform.

  • @seo-boss(67)· 2649d

    If you're on the Steem front-ends every day, you know these destructive elements, they are only here to disturb you. Everyone should get a virtual house right to save the own blog and the possibility to ban others. The banned should have read only right and nothing more. Result: No flag wars, no downvote wars --> PEACE!

  • @hilarski(76)· 2649d

    Good luck with that. I don't have an answer for you on this one.

  • @shoemanchu(75)· 2649d

    There should be no downvote button at all, should be a flag still and for only people using someone else material due to copyright and if the user flags someone over some BS, then the user with that flag kills his MANA for a Month.........

  • @masterthematrix(61)· 2649d

    We need to get rid of the privilige between Steemi.com and the reward ward pool. Steem is not Steemit.com and therefore the reward pool shouldn't be tied up with your application this is an unfair advantage compared to all other dapps running on Steem. We need a fundamental step in the right direction to become an independent dapp economy.

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @hanshotfirst(80)· 2649d

    The title of this post is "Downvote Pool Deep Dive" yet there is one essential piece missing form this "deep dive". What is the goal of creating any amount of "free" downvotes? I am assuming it is to encourage higher quality content and thus attract and retain more content creators and consumers.

    If that is indeed the goal, how do free downvotes help meet that goal?

    If upvotes have not been used to meet this goal, what makes anyone think downvotes will?

    Have we done a "deep dive" to see what is causing the lack of quality content? Have we even defined "quality content"?

    Personally I think that two of the main reasons that the content sucks on here is that there is a huge financial incentive to blindly sell one's vote or blindly vote trade. Another is that those who do forgo the short term financial gains of vote selling/trading and who actually do want to encourage great content, do not have enough time in the day to find it and the site does very little to make it easier to find it. For years all content has been lumped together in one giant stew. Is that how successful sites like reddit work?

    Now on top of not having enough time to find quality content, someone who is a "good actor" needs to also spend time finding content to downvote?

    I would imagine in programming you look at things from a "problem - solution" standpoint. Define the problem then create a solution. This seems like you are creating a not thoroughly thought out solution for an undefined problem.

    Can we:

    1. Define the problem
    2. Pinpoint the causes of the problem
    3. Come up with a plan of attack to address each cause of the problem based on research and experts who have fixed similar problems
    4. Implement the well thought out solution
  • @anup0036shukla(2)· 2649d

    Brother follow me. I am all time upvote give and comment See your all post i am upvote give now.

  • @powernap(53)· 2649d

    Downvoting should be banned from the system completely. It scares away people and is misused a lot already. I prefer a free voice and we all know that trending is made up of bought votes and no one earns more than a few bucks here no matter how good the content.

  • @ew-and-patterns(71)· 2649d

    Could you please explain in detail, what influences/increases/decreases the total rewards fund? In the two years that I have been active here, i have seen it differ in size between 650.000 and 900.000 Steem. I never understood what influences the total rewards fund the most. Obviously, the number of votes in the 7 day period and rshares behind those are a factor, but is that all?

  • @coingecko(71)· 2649d

    Appreciate the deep dive. Interested to see if the EIP gets pushed forward.

  • @promobot(61)· 2649d

    @steemium purchased a 24.08% vote from @promobot on this post.

    *If you disagree with the reward or content of this post you can purchase a reversal of this vote by using our curation interface http://promovotes.com

  • @delegate4upvotes(47)· 2649d

    I think we don't need a downvote pool we should keep it the same if people want to down vote posts it should be at their own costs only my opinion

  • @felixxx(73)· 2649d

    How complicated would it be to reward users, when they do not vote ?

    ... in a way that nobody is being forced to vote, but only when they see something they expect good curation rewards for ...

    I know this would be a totally different approach, I am just curious, how hard something like this would be to implement ...

  • @steemium(62)· 2649d

    About 63.43$ has been spent to promote this content using Steemium.
    Learn more here!

  • @transisto(75)· 2649d

    The Steem EIP

    Yes, that's the one (facepalm)

    As repeated numerous times, call it "Steemit EIP" if anything. Using a naming that's not leaving room for any other proposal name is a scummy move. We already know you have full control over this blockchain's governance, no need to rub it in.

    While it does not incentivize curating through downvotes,

    Yes it does, curation via downvote is more likely to increase the value of the token and therefore using an amount free downvotes bring a net positive monetary value to the user.

    If everyone did this, then no content would have any reward shares and would then not get any reward.

    What kind of FUD is this? You know full well this would never happen. We have a hard time having any downvote how can you think the sum of all users actions across all content would be more downvotes than upvotes. There is no word for how ridiculous that is.

    I think your hybrid solution is similar to this one can you confirm? https://steemit.com/steem/@transisto/separate-downvoting-power-pool-concept-visualized

    Allocating rewards to the right initiatives is more important than content discovery.

    Why have an arbitrarily over-sized upvoting pool compared to downvoting? Why so much complexity?

    Reddit statistics shows there are 10 times more upvotes than downvotes (without monetary incentive). People will invariably downvote less even with 100% DV pool because here votes have economic value which has more direct real life consequences. If we want to have a balanced ecosystem some community member/stakeholders will have to take the responsibility to downvotes for all of those who don't. They will be called tyrants and be at risk to become target for off-chain/real life attacks not just benign downvote retaliations.

    Steem will also need way more downvotes to counter collusion of for profit voting guilds if a switch is made to 50% curation reward.

    As part of a "deep dive" I would review the change in number of downvotes that were caused by Steemit recent changes from flag to down arrow.

    You forgot to mention that many witness suggested that the reward pool be independently delegatable. I didn't think this was all that important with 100% downvote but it for sure is if only 25%.

    Ps: I upvoted your post because I think it's an important discussion to have but I find your analysis to be very shallow and possibly disingenuous.

  • @svamiva(61)· 2649d

    Free downvotes alone wouldn't really inspire me, I'm not really interested to move rewards from Bob with his mediocre content to Alice with her mediocre at least. (And Alice might be Bobs girlfriend btw) If on the other hand the downvoted rewards would be not just returned to the pool, but actually burned, that would be another story.

  • @jacobtothe(77)· 2649d

    My two cents:

    Yes, it is unfortunate that flags drain the same resource pool that could otherwise earn and give rewards, but bots will be built to game any system you build.

    Right now, one of the biggest problems is bid bots distorting curation. Do we want it to be that simple for people to buy whale flags against other people that are effectively free? How would your proposal be abuse-resistant?

    Also, if Steemit is officially no longer in beta, please don't propose using the entire system as an experiment again. It feels reckless.

  • @igster(63)· 2649d

    Can't wait to see the effect of separate downvote pool on our current trending list, perhaps people will think twice should they really be promoting their content to top spots. Finally the community can start efficiently curating, pushing good content up and bad content down, as we should've been able from the very start.

    Thank you for making these posts by the way!

    I wonder have you explored how many posts in trending 1-20 spots are promoted over a long period of time? And how much manual, active curation is happening compared to passive?

  • @jackramsey(61)· 2649d

    Greetings @vandeberg, I believe it is better to integrate something like "report abuse". If it is porn, spam or simply inappropriate. Like the painting of Picasso, if you can not understand it, some will downvote it which should not be the case. Pictures which you feel are great may not be pleasing to others, but then others may find it funny and entertaining. We should promote creativity. Making others judge the work of people they do not know maybe counter productive. Like photographers downvoting painters, bloggers downvoting gamers, it may not be fair. Regards

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @marki99(62)· 2649d

    @vandeberg, I think discussions would be more productive if you had them with witnesses and a couple of guys who thought a lot about steem economics (like @donkeypong or @trafalgar etc..). Opening this discussion to everyone doesn't seem to help, judging by the quality of comments under this post. Just informing the community about the changes would be enough, when and if they will come.

  • @michealb(67)· 2649d

    :)

  • @michealb(67)· 2649d

    Good idea, yep if there was a big enough reward for downvotes i would just down vote myself all day long lol, Cant wait thanks, oh i would have given you a bigger upvote but wasted my VM on acidyos 'downvote this post' blog. sorry :)

  • @pibara(68)· 2649d

    Maybe try and fix the real problem with downvotes first:

    Downvotes, as only corrective measure create a situation where there is real insentive to choose more disruptive use of stake to maximize profit (running a bid not, messing up the trending pages and messing up the reputation system) over less disruptive behaviour for maximizing proffits (commenting on your own posts and upcoming those comments).

    Currently bid not owners are abusing the reward pool while being more or less bullet proof as long as they don't post or comment. The worst of the bid bot users, through using bid bots all of the time boost their reputation enough to gain the higher ground against most potential down voters, as we have all learned retaliation is a bitch and down voting someone with a higher (in this case, false-) reputation than you isn't wise.

    Have a look at the results from this poll. While opinions differ on what behaviour by passive stake holders is preferable, everyone seems to agree running a bidbot is not.

    I mentioned two possible measures in my counter proposal post that could help actually address creating the preferable incentives instead.

    • Make reputation impact of upvotes opt-in and document it as being meant only to be used by actual personal user wallets, not by bid bots. That would address much of the false reputation created by bid bots today.
    • Implement a blockchain wide advertising economy. For users, bid bots are free limited scope advertising. Provide them with better alternatives, and not only would that disincentive bidbots, it will also create a tool for drawing in new top content providers, away from other blogging and blogging platforms.

    As with the linear convergent rewards that is a bad idea once you do the math, because it does nothing to incentify huge fish to behave, whilst hitting new users disproportionally hard, this part of the proposal too is more likely to worsen the platform economics than to better it.

    I know these posts are done mostly for show and you guys already have made up your minds about implementing these "features" as long as the top witnesses are on board (and it seems most of those guys are easily confused by a bit of high school level math), but in the end, these three measures seem to all be tailored specifically, not to improve the economic position of the platform within the world ecconomy but to improve the ecconomic position of Steemit Inc within the STEEM economy. I hope I am wrong about this, and that you will look at the arguments against these specific measures and alternatives suggested my me and others.

  • @alexs1320(72)· 2649d

    People... You are constantly thinking about one single thing, it's redistribution. Redistribution is not how the economy works. The economy is about additional value.

    The only question that you should solve is how to make Steem more valuable in USD.

    According to everything we know, it means that you need to either:

    • get more users on Steemit platform
    • spread Steem token to platforms that are able to attract users

    It's the only thing you should care about.

    Imagine If you were VW. Golf sales are not good. Your solution analogue to this would be: "maybe we should put a real button here"

    Wrong answer. VW stocks will grow up if they sell more cars, because VW is not Golf. So they have 30 models in their portfolio.

    If someone doesn't want a Golf, they are not going to buy it no matter what. Maybe they want an SUV, maybe a sedan, maybe... Ferrari.

    You need to change the product Or to make a new product

    Can you imagine pitching this idea to an outside investor? Or to famous blogger? "We are hosting the platform that you didn't care about for 3 years, but now, there is a new feature - downvotes!"

    Please, test on 1000 subjects, and tell me how many of them joined

  • @healthexpert(70)· 2649d

    @vandeber its good but some whales downvote without any abuse i think you should take action against these whales

  • @meesterboom(81)· 2649d

    I have an idea! If we could anonymously downvote then things would be much better. The big problem that we have to counter is large accounts abusing their stake. But most are afraid to cross them

  • @lennstar(66)· 2649d

    This would mean that if a whale has you on target (e.g. because you downvoted him) it is even easier (less costly) for him to steal nyou all your earnings.

  • @kenanqhd(69)· 2649d

    I think a downvote pool is really important but i dont know if it can solve the problem alone.

    How about interfaces hiding the pending payout until AFTER a user votes? The user would only see the number of upvotes and downvotes initially. The price also does nothing to foster engagement with low paying posts because people perceive it as low value. Also, if the post payout is hidden, it may deter people from downvoting out of spite or revenge because they might think they are wasting their downvote.

    I think we are on the right track with free downvotes but it needs something else with it.

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @liberosist(72)· 2649d

    Whilst I have supported encouraging downvoting since 2016, I do not believe this is a sustainable solution. This is simply giving the greediest members of Steem a free 10%-25% downvotes to abuse. It may have the net benefit long-term of pushing people to embrace the downvote, I won't be supporting this feature in its current state till there's adequate mitigation against rampant vindictive downvoting by abusive whales. One whale with 25% downvotes could effectively kill off thousands of genuine content creators.

  • @jaki01(77)· 2649d

    Maybe you remember that I would support the implementation of a "convergent linear rewards curve". Concerning 'downvotes' I had the following thoughts (copied from my own post "My STEEM Vision."):

    I think it's good and right that the possibility to flag (now called downvoting) exists in a decentralized social network. How else can spam or even worse, such as child pornography, be fought? I also think it makes sense in principle to be able to reduce the reward for posts that are extremely overrated from one's own point of view. The crux, however, is that downvotes are often set for the sole reason of pursuing other users, solely because of their dissenting opinions or even completely independent of what they write(!), and denying them permanent visibility and any rewards. This is counterproductive to say the least and makes a devastating impression on newcomers who happen to observe such 'flag wars' or even get into them! We should be aware of this. If it were up to me, ways and means would have to be found to contain 'flag wars' waged purely for personal motives. For example, a committee of respected users elected by the community and equipped with sufficient delegated STEEM power could be called in such cases and then decide whether the flags were justified or not. In my opinion the suggestion to provide each user with a certain number of free downvotes so that spam (or overvalued posts) would be flagged more frequently in the future, wouldn't really make a big difference under the current conditions. I assume that only whales flagged more often than before, while smaller accounts would still not dare to do so for fear of retaliation.

    Nevertheless, your idea of the "hybrid approach" is interesting and at least makes it somewhat less profitable to flag a lot, "just for fun".

  • @crypticat(74)· 2649d

    Instead of giving free downvotes, why not figure out a way to punish the behaviour that should be downvoted?

    For example, I have been downvoting bots which tag me in curation spam posts, just a small downvote and the micro-cents it costs doesn't bother me as much as the spam. A system should be designed to prevent minuscule votes for curation as well. You could read my post about Spam for ideas.

    Serial commenters and upvoters should also be dealt with. An account giving micro upvotes to only large Steem holders hundreds of times a day does nothing for the blockchain. Low-quality posts which use bid bots are already policed, why not just adjust curation to the point where these bots are put out of business.

  • @tygertyger(70)· 2649d

    Nether upvoting nor downvoting on steemit is fair nor does it help the platform. It is but a circlejerk of the people with power! I have long given up making a difference here as any proposal to actually make the platform worth something culturally run on deaf ears. why because the people in control don't care how they make their money, just that they make it . How is it otherwise that you have amazing posts voted up by hundreds of people that make mere pennies but shit posts that make hundreds with a few powerful votes.

    All this talk about wanting to engage people is just a smoke screen, sure give the power trolls another way to further degrade the forum by making their downvotes pay - because we all know that no matter how we minnows try to downvote the power shit posts we would not even make a dent in it !

    you want to make this place worth something make votes count equally! one vote per account with equal power to all ! like this the community would actually care and those who create quality content would actually be rewarded ... but i know this wiill just run on deaf ears again ...don't even know why I still try ...

  • @lordnigel(67)· 2649d

    There are some obvious big whale villains that need stopping, but also flag/downvote wars is just not the way to build an open and welcoming community.

    I haven't run/seen any simulations/scenerio's to know the effect of the down vote system proposed here...I think some people are reasonably hinting this would be useful, i.e. seeing some practical use case examples might help my tired brain see the benefits (vs. just jumping it straight into production).

    I think the key priority should be on ensuring those whom provide good content, past, present and future get a just and fair reward.

    I would like the engineers to look at things in the works with these 3 lens as well. Thanks for asking @vandeberg what could be looked at next. My feedback is whatever you look at, can you think about the result with the above 3 lens, and then present pros, cons, etc to back up its been thoroughly thought through (although I'm sure its clear in a few people minds, with out some stick figure diagrams, my brain is too tired to work out :))

    This focus of giving a carrot is far more like to improve the view of the platform then chasing and hitting bad people making pennies with a stick.

    I know everyone wants to be treated fairly and the focus should be on more content, fun experiences and positive actions and rewards (not removal of rewards and the controversy it brings).

    I think of the analogy of a bunch of managers spending their time checking how many days sick and employee has off and month...and finding a way to put a stop to it...wasting hours hitting them with a stick and making them feel guilty - when instead if they focused on the peoples strengths and getting performance up.

    All the best

  • @hanshotfirst(80)· 2649d

    First of all, thank you for all the countless hours, hard work, blood and sweat you have put into this blockchain. You are truly a technological genius. In fact, this place seems to be filled with quite a few technological geniuses. There are also many brilliant scientific and logical minds.

    Unfortunately, what seems to be missing around here are geniuses in the field of human behavior. This idea is a prime example of the lack of expertise in how humans typically behave. This idea seems to hinge on the premise that the people who interact with the blockchain and the content on it will act in a logical way that will benefit the platform as a whole. During the three years I have been here, I have seen no evidence that the majority of people will act this way. There is much evidence to the contrary. People have acted in their own personal short term interest. That is why we have the problems with content that we do.

    This idea also implements a system that rewards negativity. I am no expert on human behavior either, but this does not seem like a way to attract masses of people.

    Actually I am going to stop. I am not an expert in human behavior. Before doing something so drastic, I hope the team consults with someone who truly understands if this idea will be more likely to attract people to or repel them from the platform.

    I understand the value of "you will never know unless you try", but with so much on the line, I would hope the team would do a tremendous amount of research and consult with experts in this area before firing blindly.

    I would imagine you would laugh if an expert on human behavior came in and started messing with your code. The converse should also be true. This blockchain is a technological masterpiece, but it has zero value if people do not use it. You have built it, now you need an expert to show you how to get the masses to want to use it.

  • @bashadow(70)· 2649d

    I am not sure anyone has really sat down and thought this through enough. I understand you Want more people downvoting excessively rewarded post. I get that. Reality bites. Look at the number of minnows and redfish. have you even looked at the number of daily active minnow accounts? have you added up the total SP power (thats the vote power they all have) and seen how much of a monetary effect they can have on a post? A few minutes of a check on trending - largerst with a small scroll is $217.62.

    Reality just how much of an effect on that post would all the minnows have? Do you think that all the Daily Using minnows could really make a dent in the payout? Get real people. My 100% downvote would be $0.03 cents. At the bare minnimum of dolphinhood my downvote would be $0.10 cents. You would need 2170 I just became a dolphins to bring it to $0.00. Or 7233 minnows that are able to cast a 3 cent reward.

    Like @jrcornel has pointed out, all it will do is increase bad apple trollish behavior and drive more people away from the steem blockchain. I understand that it is already a done deal, that it will be done that there will be a downvote pool and there is not a thing anyone on the blockchain can say to change that. At least take the precaution of requiring a comment before being allowing a downvote to go through.

  • @bigram13(75)· 2649d

    First of all It is theoretically impossible to run out of upvotes as it takes a percentage of your voting power every time, always leaving some. Also It sounds like you will be leaving money on the table by not using all your down votes. The more you down vote the more it cancels out the rewards allocated, which in turn leaves more rewards for posts not down voted. This means people will down vote just to down vote. This is going to turn into a viscous place with this in place, causing lots of drama, on probably having many people leave the site. I for one will take my investment else where. You will lose active users, and then advertising revenue will go with it. You will be sliting your own throats worse than steemit inc has already done. Is there nothing else more important you can work on... Maybe SMTs, communities... Keeping people here.

  • @geekgirl(80)· 2649d

    I am not a fan of downvotes in general. But if it imporves steem economics probably is ok.

    I mentioned this somewhere else. Would you be able to pass this on to UI team if you find it interesting?

    It would be nice to have a “tip” or “gift” button for posts, so users could give authors additional rewards. I know anybody can transfer from wallet. But having this feature on posts might encourage rewarding authors without solely relying on reward pool. It would also develop a gifting culture.

    P.S. With tips or gifts content can even be rewarded after 7 days.

  • @buggedout(77)· 2649d

    It is very good to see you posting and discussing change proposals. I find it very encouraging.

    That said, I am concerned that we might see a form of extortion racket emerge from this particular change. Especially if delegated power is playing a big part the bidbots on this platform will become very powerful.

    We've had a few high profile flag wars in the past but none sticks in my mind more than the way grumpycat bent a few people to his will using flags. There will be great opportunity for large stakeholders and delegation recipients to behave in a similar way without cost or repercussion.

  • @bitcoinflood(80)· 2649d

    Honestly is a downvote even needed? And if YES then there is a bigger issue.

    If someone is going to come on here and just post garbage but has a ton of steem power to their name who are we to say they can or can't post it ?

    The only time I have ever seen downvotes really used was when whales are attacking other people which seems totally unfair.

    Why not just leave it as only upvotes. You have the choice to upvote good content but if you don't feel it is worthy well then simply you don't upvote it.

    This to me seems like the easiest solution to everything.

    Perhaps something else needs to be looked into if we are worried about crap content being upvoted crazy high. Or then again maybe we shouldn't care if they are holding a 300k steem power up ?

  • @nathanmars(75)· 2649d

    Keep up the good work Team Steemit

  • @stackin(78)· 2649d

    🤷🏼‍♂️

    Posted using Partiko iOS

  • @monster-one(75)· 2649d

    Wow, my English is not good, but what I understand is that all those flag bots will have more reasons to do it, why not make an effort to eliminate the bots before everything?

  • @jondoe(76)· 2649d

    Do not do this.

    Making this change will be the final nail in the coffin for this place.

    The amount of infighting this downvote pool will bring will far outweigh any supposed benefits. Guaranteed.

    Do not do this.

  • @dandays(73)· 2649d

    It’s nice to see an article from a Steemit engineer—thank you!

    As far as incentivizing downvotes, @vandeberg—no thank you. You can’t be serious, right? Where’s Ashton?

  • @zanoni(66)· 2649d

    It only leads to more downvote abusing, and that we have already more than enough on Steem Or not? There are other, really much more important changes needed, like to improve the onboarding process for new users. And to keep account creation for new users free, some movements on Steem already speculate on higher account prices. Charging users for sign up on Steem will kill Steem. These are real important things to fix, but for sure not to make downvotes easier. Have a nice day Tom

  • @jrcornel(82)· 2649d

    Please tell me how this will help more people want to come here?

    Or even keep the few users we have?

    This is going to increase the toxicity on the platform significantly. Receiving a downvote is exponentially worse than not receiving an upvote, emotionally.

    Why are we not just waiting for SMTs and communities before we start throwing stuff at the wall?

    TL:DR

    I think this is a terrible idea that will drive users away and I do not support it.

  • @smooth(74)· 2649d

    Since you brought up changing your vote perhaps you can look into how that works. As I understand it (but I could be wrong and have not searched into the code), changing a vote from 20% to 21% takes mana of a 21% vote, not a 1% vote (and in addition forfeits any curation rewards that the original 20% vote may have earned). This creates an incentive to split ones stake up into tiny pieces so that instead of changing a vote one can just add another 1% from a different account.

    If there is not actually any exploit here (and perhaps it is not the exact one I mentioned but some other one with respect to changing votes), I would also be interested to learn that since the claim has been made to me that there is, and that users without fleets of many small/bot accounts are placed at a disadvantage.

  • @prydefoltz(75)· 2649d

    The number one goal of the steem blockchain should be attracting more eyes on the page. Downvoting does not do that. When the downvoting pool gets misused and it will be, you will have people chased off the platform.

    The value of a post is subjective and sometimes people are jerks. Downvoting empowers jerks and puts us all at risk. There is no appeal process offered. Instead, empower those people that encourage engagement and a growing community. Change policy so that it is more difficult to scam the system and/or create a block-chained backed downvote curator to deal with the bad hats. Downvote wars are not in the best interest of the steem blockchain. Infighting is not attractive.

  • @nokodemion(59)· 2649d

    The nature of a decentralized system is that you can't really force anything on anyone, including rules of civil discourse or even basic decency. On the other hand, you also don't have an authority defining those things for you and kicking you out if they don't like you.

  • @bluerobo(70)· 2649d

    How am I supposed to counter bidbotted crap with my tiny downvote pool?

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @skepticology(58)· 2650d

    I think any belief in the wisdom of the crowd is a fallacious assumption. People lack the virtues needed for just self-policing which is why rights such as freedom of speech must be coded into law and enforced with violence in the real world. Encouraging downvoting will open new avenues of self-righteous mob-mentality witch hunts where gangs will begin voting against those with whom they disagree or those who have downvoted them instead of honorably curating rewards.

    I've noticed that the changes proposed by Steemit almost always favor the largest wallets and that's no surprise considering their stake, however I do appreciate the recent attempts towards open and honest communication on the blockchain.

  • @kingscrown(82)· 2650d

    i dont think this is a good idea. why? when downvotes also pay, then people will create shit content to downvote it first and get curation from others.

    platform will end spammed with bad posts.

  • @abrish(56)· 2650d

    ohhh this is a new dimension that I have never heard of steem. but my question is how much fee down voting is advisable or does the amount of down voting changes with different users? pleas let me know this.

  • @simplymike(69)· 2650d

    Aren't there enough unappropriate down votes given out every day already? Just last week, a friend of mine received multiple dowvotes from the same person, for absolutely no reason. Every time, his rep score went down so he decided to stay away for a while.

    Is that what we really want? Driving away even more honest users by making downvotes easier? There is so much abuse of downvotes already...

    I'm starting to think you guys are killing this place on purpose... :0(

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @shainemata(66)· 2650d

    I think one of the bigger concerns is that larger accounts can obliterate earnings for someone they don’t like. Having a separate pool helps in that they can obliterate without cost to themselves. Perhaps the downvote can be a one person, one vote system rather than a percentage of SP. This gives the smaller accounts some opportunity to successfully downvote unremarkable content by bigger accounts, removing the immunity from losing rewards they would otherwise have. For example, if your self vote is worth $2.40 and a downvote from a small account is worth $0.001, you can afford many downvotes without concern.

    A one person, one vote system could work on percentages. Your self vote and one downvote would be worth 50% of the reward. One self vote and two downvotes would be worth 33% of the reward. The percentages would be based on the ratio of upvotes to downvotes. This would also prevent a bunch of big accounts helping each other out with massive votes as the dishonest upvotes would also get cut by the ratio of upvotes to downvotes.

    For example, 3 big accounts vote up a post to $4 and 6 smaller accounts downvote. Total 9 accounts. That’s 33% ratio. Reward goes down to $1.33.

    Since it’s going to be a separate pool of downvotes anyway, they should operate differently too.

    Posted using Partiko iOS

  • @infidel1258(69)· 2650d

    It seems adding a downvote mana pool removes, largely, the cost of downvotes and that seems unwise.

    A downvote should "cost" the voter. Because that cost imports meaning to the act of voting.

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @cryptictruth(74)· 2650d

    Intresting concept. I think this is a good idea for now. In theory, incentivizing down voting would be an awesome idea, but humans typically will try to exploit the system ruining it for everyone. The fact that there is the ability to down vote has given us a way to combat spam content which is always plagued this ecosystem.

  • @remlaps(66)· 2650d

    I'm not in support or opposition to the proposal, but I have feedback...

    (i) "Let's try it and see what happens" may not be the ideal methodology, and I'm not sure that it demonstrates a sufficient level of fiduciary responsibility for a blockchain with a $120 million market cap.

    (ii) Mathematically, there must be a positive-value voting scheme that's functionally equivalent to one that involves voting with negative votes. Or at least one that deescalates the flag wars, rather than providing them with more fuel.

    (iii) Something modeled after second price auctions might serve the dual-purposes of discouraging votes that overvalue a post (whether self-vote, collusive voting, or for any other reason), and also disencentivizing downvotes that are wildly out of step with the community.

    (iv) If implemented, how long is everything going to be stalled waiting for the rewards pools to return to equilibrium?

    (v) Is there any quantitative evidence to suggest that the proposal is better than the status quo?

  • @demotruk(75)· 2650d

    Sounds like something worth trying.