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Steembot Experiment, Part 2: I Miscalculated

Approximately three weeks ago, I published a commentary on Steem bidbots that got quite a bit of engagement. You can see the original experimental test post right here.

bidbots Image from Pixabay.

I'd like to apologize for taking so long to circle back around to this. I had intended to publish this post much sooner as I had come upon some extra data that informed me of my error and I wanted to share it. Unfortunately, I waited too long and can't seem to find all of it.

This is a particularly difficult post to write. Not because I have to admit I was wrong, but because I can't show you all the data I'd like to show you (and how I obtained it) in order to shed new light on the questions I wanted to answer. Sometimes life gets in the way. I couldn't publish earlier because I got consumed with tax matters, family business, onboarding a new client, and, yes, the Narrative beta launch. I guess I'll have to do my penance.

Back to the matter at hand. In my previous post, I made some erroneous assumptions. I knew when I published it I'd be inaccurate on some of them, but I had no idea by how much I'd be off. It was by A LOT.

As much engagement as that post received (there were 145 comments -- a record for me, I think), not a single person showed up to defend the bidbots. I was disappointed. As much business as they get, you'd think someone would show up and tell me how wrong I was in my conclusions and point me in the right direction. One person did. He didn't stoop to defending the bidbots, but he did question my math, and I'm thankful he did.

A big thanks to @ecoinstant for pointing out my error and getting me some data (real data) to analyze. Now I'm going to set the record straight (as best I can).

A Steem Bidbot Case Study (And Disclaimer)

I'll go ahead and get the disclaimers out of the way:

This post does not constitute an endorsement of bidbots, nor is it a criticism of them. It is simply a continuation of a case study on the economics of using bidbots to upvote posts. I do not claim the results of my experiment are universal or based on reasonable expectations. Every use of bidbots could potentially turn out differently.

Nevertheless, I'm excited to share this new data.

How Bidbots Can Increase Rewards for Every One

I'm not going to rehash the entire post where I discussed the results of my Steembot experiment. Again, you can read it here. I'm going to focus on the rewards discussion part of that post, and specifically on ROI, because that's where the focal point of my experiment rested, and it was the locus of my error. But before I discuss that, I want to state outright what I expected the results to be.

When I started the experiment, I had three hypotheses:

  1. I expected to get a higher ROI with my experimental post using a bidbot and no other promotion as opposed to spending two hours writing a great post and promoting it in Discord channels;
  2. I also expected that manual human upvotes would produce higher rewards on average for one of my normal posts than all the upvotes on my experimental post; and
  3. I expected that the bidbot would increase rewards for all other upvoters on that post.

In my last post, I showed that I was right about the first two hypotheses and wrong on the third. As it turns out, I was actually right on the third one, as well.

So let's go to the data:

In the previous post, I made this statement:

The bot's portion of the total upvote value for that post equates to 95.7%. If the bot received that percentage of the total curation rewards, then it took $6.45018 and left about .29 STU for everyone else, a paltry sum to divide between 25 accounts. On the other hand, those 25 accounts would have divided $1.18 STU without the bidbot vote, the lion's share of that going to @neoxian, a manual human voter.

This was based on a faulty assumption. The part in bold is the part I got wrong. The actual figure The Rising bidbot received as a percentage of curation rewards was 81.3% (keep reading; I'll show you the math below).

@ecoinstant sent me a spreadsheet with data pulled from the blockchain that included the voting times, upvote values in SBD, the amount of curation reward each voter actually received, and the performance percentage of their upvotes (which I interpret to be an equivalent to ROI). Here's a glimpse of the data:

f1aozy5nv9.jpg From @ecoinstant

This data comes from an app currently in development and @ecoinstant wouldn't reveal the source. I don't blame him, but I did manage to spot check some of the numbers at the time that he sent it to me and they checked out to be pretty close to accurate. The source I used was [Steemworld](https://steemworld.org).

steemworld Screenshot of Steemworld.org

At the time, when I received @ecoinstant's data, I spot checked some of the data on that spreadsheet immediately and shared my findings with my source.

Steem bidbot discussion

Here's a screenshot of @ecoinstant's data showing the payout of @therising bidbot:

3030nq34nv.jpg From @ecoinstant

Note the 20.8% in the last column of the spreadsheet. That's the performance percentage of that bidbot vote. The bidbot's 81.3% of the total curation rewards amounted to 20.8% ROI (upvote value divided by curation rewards). So how do I know the bidbot got 81.3% of the rewards pool?

11.829 SP (Bidbot curation reward) / 14.549 SP (total curation reward) = 81.3%.

That's the easy math. Calculating the 20.8% return was a little trickier. I based my calculations on the STEEM and SBD valuations as reported by CoinMarketCap seven days after post publication time.

experimental post Screenshot of Block reported on Steemworld.org

You can see the post publication time was March 17, 2019 at 21:44 EST. Otherwise known as 9:44 p.m. I tried to get as close to 9:44 p.m. on March 24 as I could and determined the price of STEEM and SBD to be $.484105 and $1.06 USD, respectively. That's a ratio of 2.1896:1 (STEEM:SBD).

The problem, of course, is that upvote values are being reported in SBD and curation rewards are being reported in SP, so we need to convert one of them. Let's multiply the upvote value of 25.320 SBD by the STEEM:SBD ratio (2.1896), and we get 55.440672. Taking that number and dividing it into the 11.829 SP curation rewards on the spreadsheet and we end up with 21.33% ROI for The Rising bidbot.

That's not 20.8%, but the difference can be explained in a couple of ways. Because the app is a robot and I'm working manually, it's likely more accurate because it can pinpoint exact times, which are important for calculating rewards and upvotes on the blockchain. It could also be using valuations from an exchange rather than from CoinMarketCap. Either way, I'm satisfied that @ecoinstant's data is pretty accurate. And what that tells me is, all of the upvoters on my experimental post received positive payouts on their upvotes. I don't believe the bidbot destroyed their returns at all. So what are those returns?

A look at the data shows that every other upvoter saw a positive performance (ROI) with the highest being 1401.4%. Poor @jaichai, he came late to the party and only got 9.1% return. Besides @jaichai, The Rising bidbot actually saw the lowest returns from all upvoters. I actually find that surprising.

Even when we account for the early voting penalty (anyone upvoting a post within the first 15 minutes gets a small penalty in rewards payout). The highest among those was .007 SBD by @happycrazycon, who voted at 10.4 minutes after publication time. That upvoter saw a 254.9% return on their upvote.

My grand conclusion is this: Based on this case study, there is no reason to believe that upvoters lose rewards on all bidbot votes. In fact, as I originally surmised, bidbot votes can lead to higher rewards for other voters. But I want to reiterate my disclaimer: The evidence is inconclusive. What that means is, this experiment doesn't account for all factors that can affect upvote values and curation rewards. For instance, it's likely that a bidbot vote at 15 minutes after post publication time would drastically affect the curation rewards of anyone upvoting a post after that. So I'm not willing to say that bidbots are intrinsically profitable, but this case study does call into question the oft-repeated mantra that bidbots do damage to the rewards pool. Sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't.

One final word. None of this has anything to say, of course, about the repercussions of the trending page that shows nothing but mediocre posts (at best) propped up by bidbots. I still believe something should be done about the trending page, but I'm not willing to condemn bidbot use outright.

Note: If you're tagged below, it's because you upvoted or commented on my first commentary post. This will not be a regular occurrence.

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Comments · 24

  • @hooiyewlim(74)· 2689d

    i think the best return is find the person who always use bidbot and be the first and upvote it to get the most share in curation .

  • @arcange(79)· 2691d

    Congratulations @blockurator! Your post was mentioned in the Steem Hit Parade in the following category:

    • Comments - Ranked 9 with 77 comments
  • @wonderwop(67)· 2692d

    I missed your first post but I'm glad you came back and updated the information. This was very informative. I try to use a bid bot once a day for 1SBD, it usually ups my rewards to around 1SBD so I figure it's a wash. But my SP increases two fold. 👍

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @tryskele(65)· 2692d

    It was a mistake, to me not a big deal. I know that you would never intentionally try to lead others astray. All it takes is someone to say something. In this case @ecoinstant had that bit of knowledge you needed. The jury is still out for me. I agree with what others say about the potential for abuse. Which we all know was a problem for quite a while. Either I've gotten so use to seeing it I've become numb, but I don't see it as much as a problem as it was.

    I have personally found out very recently, the communities you are a part of makes a HUGE difference. Nothing beats actual engagement. For someone who is a minnow or higher a bidbot might be more beneficial. Where someone like me not so much. Very basic numbers 20% of 10.00 post = 2.00 compared to 20% of 1.00 post = .20 So for redfish and plankton, it's not worth it. It does some to become beneficial at some point.

  • @dswigle(78)· 2692d

    I still prefer manual curation as opposed to bots. I realize they have their place, but, I haven't seen a bot intelligent enough to know quality when it is spelled out to them

    So basically, it is a vote for vote or popularity contest?

    Where is the quality in that?

  • @traciyork(75)· 2692d

    I appreciate the tag @blockurator, because the bid bot thing is definitely a situation that needs exploring. Well, maybe situation is too dramatic a word, but it is something that has been coming up since I first joined Steem in late 2017, so obviously needs to be addressed.

    I can see both sides of it - I've used bit bots before, and I do think they have their place, but there's also so much abuse (like shit posts paying out hundreds). Not sure of the answer, but I found your experiment very thought provoking. Thanks for doing this.

  • @quillfire(62)· 2692d

    @blockurator & @ecoinstant,

    The contentiousness of Bidbots (the "Raping of the Reward Pool") is NOT predicated upon the effects Bidbots have upon a post's participants (the poster and the post's upvoters). It is, rather, predcated upon the effects they have upon all other non-involved Steemians (the system as a whole).

    The Reward Pool is a LIMITED shared resource ... meaning that the amount of newly minted currency that is distributed each day is fixed.

    Bidbots divert a HUGE percentage of upvotes (money) away from Distribution Based Upon Content Quality (as determined by the collective opinion of the audience) to Distribution Based Upon Vote-Buying.

    The Second Order effects of this reality are even more pernicious. Because so much of Whale/Orca SP (approximately 85% of the total) is delegated to Bidbots (in order to generate an alternative source of Passive Income in lieu of the intended Curation Awards), "Professional Curators" are starved of the upvoting capital that is required to make such endeavor profitable.

    Simply, Professional Curators (the first, and critical, actors in the process of discovery of quality content) require large stakeholders (attempting to generate legitimate Passive Income in the form of Curation Awards) to follow their Curation Trails so as to force-multiply their own upvotes. This bumps their curated posts into Hot & Trending, thusly garnering such posts additional exposure ... and financial remuneration.

    The Curation Process was designed to trigger a Domino Effect.

    Because of the MASSIVE diversion of upvoting SP to Bidbots, however, the entire Curation Process has been castrated. Hence, Professional Curators are all-but-non-existent ... and the few that do exist are all-but-impotent.

    STEEM/Steemit is a SYSTEM ... and a system MUST be analyzed in its totality. A reductionist "analysis of its parts" misses the "emergent properties" that only become apparent when viewed as a whole.

    Make no mistake ... BIDBOTS ARE CANCER and, absent reform, they and other game-rigging mechanisms WILL destroy the blockchain.

    Merit or Manipulation (and their respective consequences) ... one cannot escape the fundamental dynamaics.

    Quill

  • @wales(68)· 2692d

    Well this seems to be a popular post, but then you do make a few of them...

  • @steemflow(80)· 2692d

    The thing is that...Bid-bot are so active that even a shot posts get a huge boost...making a no sense of its existence.

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @steem-plus(74)· 2692d

    Hi, @blockurator!

    You just got a 0.64% upvote from SteemPlus! To get higher upvotes, earn more SteemPlus Points (SPP). On your Steemit wallet, check your SPP balance and click on "How to earn SPP?" to find out all the ways to earn. If you're not using SteemPlus yet, please check our last posts in here to see the many ways in which SteemPlus can improve your Steem experience on Steemit and Busy.

  • @fionasfavourites(77)· 2692d

    @blockurator

    Thank you for this follow-up post and the new data. It's fascinating. I also appreciate your neutral stance on the issue of bidbots and have taken on board what @raj808 says which suggests a conflict between the original goals of the platform and what he describes as its gamification.

    Elements of your arguments seem to me, to be diametrically opposed, but you and he, @josephsavage and I, all seem to agree that the trending page does the entire Steemit community a disservice.

  • @joanstewart(75)· 2692d

    Call me old fashioned in blogging, sitting working out bid-bots timing, working out whether or not they have ROI, IMHO looks and feels like gaming a system.

    If you are gaming the system for more gain in marketing, then perhaps use them, off-setting expense against profits, each post would have to be calculated for profit/loss.

    Back to old fashioned blogging, spend time and effort writing beneficial informative posts, people eventually start to enjoy and come back. Use tags and keywords, join great communities where people do enjoy content.

    Thoroughly enjoyed reading the comments, it helps open ones eyes as to personal taste.

  • @cheese4ead(61)· 2692d

    Excellent work @blockurator

    This clearly is a journey of knowledge and not a black or white situation. I have never professed to understanding this subject completely but I am following your research closely.

    Thanks for the update.

    Gaz

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @kaerpediem(73)· 2692d

    Thank you for tagging me And the follow up on the bid bot saga :) I am not savvy with these things... and I think I'll leave it at that :)

  • @raj808(77)· 2692d

    I think it was an interesting experiment. And as Joseph savage says

    The 'harm' that bid-bots do to the reward pool (if you see it as harm) is not about the distribution of curation rewards, it's that bid-bots change the distribution of rewards from 'quality' driven curation to 'purchased' curation.

    But, he's not picked up on the secondary (more damaging) harm that bidbots do to the platform; that of reputation. I know this to be fact as I've seen the amount of people who've quit because they say the steem Blockchain is a con. In my earlier days as a curie curator I saw many high quality content creators quit (as I was watching them to submit to curie), and in nearly every case where they gave a reason in a final post, they mentioned vote-buying bots. Basically, what I'm saying is that the reputational damage done by these people leaving and broadcasting their dissatisfaction through other sites like medium or patreon, can not be underestimated.

    The truth is that the gaming of the system by many different people on steem is what causes the low retention rate. I've heard it said by a prominent bidbot owner that if he didn't do it someone else would. To be fair to this person they try to regulate what content gets voted with their bot. But IMO, if the bidbot owners stopped doing what they're doing and formed a whale alliance that flagged anyone trying to run a bidbot into oblivion, then bidbots would be eliminated from steem.

    This idea is not without merit both from moral and business stand point. I'm pretty sure that if steem was functoning without vote buying when the bull market returns, both the amount of people joining steem, and the retention rate would sky-rocket.

    Anyway, that's my two cents. If any bidbot owners read this comment, please understand, this is not an attack on you. I genuinely think that bidbots are limiting the growth of the platform and that, long term, even the bidbot owners would make a bigger profit/ROI with a $100/steem price. That is a price we'll never see, with steem as a content based platform, while these levels of gaming the system continue.

  • @freebornangel(72)· 2692d

    By increasing the rshares pulling from the pool bid bots decrease rewards for everybody else. That trophy roi on your 'advertising' 'investment' took rewards from folks who got voted voluntarily by the community. When a whale votes everybody else loses money. When a bid bot vote it rewards the greediest among us while taking from those willing to respect pob.

    That, and the crap on trending giving us a black eye, what's not to love about bid bots and proof of wallet?

  • @esteemapp(76)· 2692d

    Thanks for using eSteem!
    Your post has been voted as a part of eSteem encouragement program. Keep up the good work! Install Android, iOS Mobile app or Windows, Mac, Linux Surfer app, if you haven't already!
    Learn more: https://esteem.app
    Join our discord: https://discord.gg/8eHupPq

  • @bengy(79)· 2692d

    Bid bots are a tricky issue.. I think I would think of them as paid promotion, like marketing. It can be good or bad... We often point to the trending page (of scammers) as the most obvious misuse of the bots. However, there are people who use them to try and get exposure for a well written piece.

    I have more of an issue with some curation accounts or the upvote for use services that are sometimes (no data sorry...) upvoting really terrible piece of work or sometimes even outright plagiarism...

    Anyway, great that you were able to circle back and readjust your findings in light of some new information! An incredibly rare trait these days!

  • @josephsavage(67)· 2693d

    This is why the best ROI curators get their results from identifying large bid-bot bids and then front-running those votes. Earlier curators always take value from later curators, especially when the later votes are orders of magnitude larger than later votes.

    The 'harm' that bid-bots do to the reward pool (if you see it as harm) is not about the distribution of curation rewards, it's that bid-bots change the distribution of rewards from 'quality' driven curation to 'purchased' curation. Whether this is good or bad is a values-driven position, not a quantitative 'provable' position.

    Do purchased votes and automated votes violate 'Proof of Brain'? Or do they perfectly exemplify proof of brain (human's improving results by applying 'brain' to the automation of curation instead of by applying it to post and curation quality?)

    Which take more intellectual effort? A girl scout selling cookies door to door, or an Amazon-supported website in the Amazon Cloud selling fulfilled-by-amazon virtual cookies? Why do we expect 'Proof of Brain' to look like humans manually drudging away at easily automated work?

  • @toddrjohnson(54)· 2693d

    Thanks for the upvote. I did a few experiments last year and decided that it really wasn't worth paying for upvotes based on the data I collected. It is better to focus on writing for initiatives, such as #steemstem.

    Proud member of #powerhousecreatives

  • @buttcoins(75)· 2693d

    Nice! I like the diligence on this one. Good on @ecoinstant and his top secret assessment tools as well!

    Posted using Partiko iOS

  • @manoldonchev(74)· 2693d

    Now, that's a pro attitude. Thanks for sorting it out. I think bidbots had different patterns, of course you could pay to promote your post more than 15 minutes after it was posted. Some of them had requirements - posts older than 15 minutes. And some just knew when to step in to not hurt the pool, I guess. The ethical bots, trying to follow Asimov's rules of robotics?

    The media was once required (more like self-conscious about it - image and all) to do clarifying posts like this one but I don't see it happening much nowadays. (This sentence is not backed by any actual data. My bad being a bad, bad, opinion thrower.)

  • @jaichai(58)· 2693d

    Couldn't find the "Occam's Razor" in this one?

    Informative post. Thanks.

    Namaste, JaiChai

  • @minnowsupport(72)· 2693d

    Congratulations! This post has been upvoted from the communal account, @minnowsupport, by blockurator from the Minnow Support Project. It's a witness project run by aggroed, ausbitbank, teamsteem, someguy123, neoxian, followbtcnews, and netuoso. The goal is to help Steemit grow by supporting Minnows. Please find us at the Peace, Abundance, and Liberty Network (PALnet) Discord Channel. It's a completely public and open space to all members of the Steemit community who voluntarily choose to be there.

    If you would like to delegate to the Minnow Support Project you can do so by clicking on the following links: 50SP, 100SP, 250SP, 500SP, 1000SP, 5000SP.
    Be sure to leave at least 50SP undelegated on your account.