scrobble.life
#witness

Is HF21 a trap?

HF21 has a bunch of different things in it. People for years have complained about combining too many things into a hardfork for Steem at once. The challenge on teh other side is that every hardfork is a risk to exchanges not keeping up. Poloniex has gone down for literal months. So, I'm an advocate of hardforking smaller changes once every 3-6 months, but I just don't see that kind of development pace being sustainable under current circumstances. So, we're left with no changes, bigger changes, and longer cycles. It's less than ideal.

In terms of this hardfork like every other hardfork the question is "How are you redistributing the money that I get now?" I've come to the conclusion that nearly every complaint on the platform is "I want to do less work to get more return." Well, at the moment posting doesn't seem to be the mass market success making thing. It seems we need other stuff happening on the chain than your trestise on scrotal infections of South African right handed salamanders. it would be great if Steemit would do some of this other stuff, but it's hard to count on them for anything outside of pure product development and a steady 800k sell wall every month. Also, that product development has really been about them and their wants rather than what the community has been asking for often for years...

So, anyway if you want marketing efforts, larger projects than $20 to get accomplished, or product development you're going to need to get it from the SPS going forward. that's the thingy were money goes in and you can make requests of the community. It's kinda like a tax, but the whole thing is voluntary and controlled by the stakeholders. So, it's kinda like opt in taxes where you choose which proposals your stake will support.

It means we can make bigger projects happens or really I'm just happy that it means we could help projects happen here. The bad news is that your mega post on scrotal infections might not make as much money. Once the rage goes down a little please realize that there's now a second way to earn. Make a proposal to do something that adds value to the chain.

If you're worried about how you're going to make something seen or heard I can offer for you to talk about your proposal on muh radio show on Sunday nights. If I like the plan I'll resteem and advocate for you.

So, with the current plan your post rewards will take a 10% immediate hit. If the goals of the SPS are met and we're adding more value than the price of Steem goes up because it's spreading into more hands through more projects and hopefully within say a year your posts are worth more than they would have been and we have this neato funding thing.

EIP

There are three parts to the economic incentive plan.

  1. A reward curve change
  2. Downvotes
  3. Curation changes

My current view is that 1 does almost nothing. It's a very gentle tweak. I may be wrong, but that's my current take. 2. Down votes are 100% necessary in a functioning system. The challenge is whales like Bernie who flag accounts like @sgtreports to zero because of opinion flagging. @sgtreports now is promising to never post here again.

So, the whole thing is kinda prima dona esque. Bernie or anyone else flagging for opinion difference especially to zero is a shitty behavior. But I think if everyone is armed or everyone is in their own communities it likely won't matter nearly as much. Ok, fine nuke my steem rewards, but if you want to fuck with my PAL rewards be prepared to buy the same amount or more as me to flag me down....

I guess I think this is a short term problem or a problem for communities that can't control their membership at all. Fortunately steem-engine has mute features, so even if a whale buys a shit ton to fuck with a community a community thorugh the owner of the issuing account has the ability to mute them. Controversial? Yes? Big Stick? Yes. It could also be used like a time-out. You've been a bad boy flagging people for bullshit all your posts are on a time-out now. Here's a dunce cap too.

Anyway, flagging is important to be able to disincentive spam. We haven't had it and so much of the rewards system is leached away every day and devaluing everythhing we do around here. Hopefully everyone can start tossing some flags on clear leaching like comment farming or all of Bernies computer authored posts or all of trafs mega bid botted posts. Then let's see how the rewards shift.

The last portion is 50:50 curation. We have this on PALnet now. Note it hasn't ruined the platform. I actually feel a lot more incentive to make sure I'm curating every day knowing that a healthy dose of curation is coming back my way. The other thing I noticed is that now owning stake matters more. So, why would a rich person read and upvote your scrotal infection article is a little more important. It's because they want to get better returns on their steem voting. After viewing these changes on PALnet I actually think the combo is a slightly non-linear curation curve (R^1.05) combined with 50:50 makes me actually curate, which I haven't paid all that much attention to in my almost 3 years here.

Anyway, tldr, it's a clickbait title and it's not a trap. The whole thing is better than what we have now. We're experiencing a lot of these changes on PALnet already and they are good. I've thrown posts into trending calling certain hardforks a clusterfuck. I think I was right then. I think these are good improvements and in the long term will reward all people on the platform more than they are now. It's gonna be ok.

If you want to discuss it I have a radio show from 9-11 eastern tonight on msp-waves.

Comments · 34

  • @bil.prag(76)· 2618d

    #belowaveragecreator

    people really started searching for posts and reading them just because they will (or already do, on palnet) get 25% more for their curation reward? really? really, really? You (people) will now spend few hours looking for quality content (and not upvote yourself or sell or buy or whatever it is done to get it all) because you don't get 25% but 50%? I thought that people read and watch stuff because they like it, how stupid am i.

  • @chireerocks(75)· 2619d

    @aggroed, I don't know about the Technical aspects but two things are definitely vital and that is Working Product (For World To Know) and 50:50 Curation to make our Internal Economy more effective to feel the Point Of Balance.

    Wishing you an wonderful time ahead and stay blessed.

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @artopium(67)· 2621d

    Yes

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @deeanndmathews(79)· 2621d

    The clickbait worked -- I'm glad I read it! HF21 makes more sense to me now and I will start thinking about proposals...

    I think part of the issue is that we have creatives who are more prolific and have more time to create than others. If you can produce quite a lot, a 10 percent haircut and the opportunity to produce larger projects with the haircut is not necessarily too frightening. If you produce less, and tend to put so much work into fewer pieces, the idea of a haircut is maddening, and the other opportunities to create more for less don't appeal as much.

  • @tonygreene113(64)· 2622d

    Smells like some really funky cheese!

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @karenmckersie(74)· 2622d

    Awesome post @aggroed , that I will be going over again when I have more time to read without interuptions, lol! upped and resteemed for now ✌👌❤🙋

  • @violetmed(69)· 2622d

    I’ll read this in a little bit.

    Posted using Partiko iOS

  • @crypto.piotr(65)· 2622d

    Dear @aggroed

    I hope you won't mind that I'm not as optimistic as you are.

    I must admit, that more I read about HF21 more I'm afraid about the future of Steemit. And it's not because I think that those changes will bring end to this platform. Not at all.

    What bothers me the most is the fact, that absolutely majority of those who share their opinions think that 50/50 split and new reward-curve will affect them in negative way. And we're all simply not being heard. Our voices here mean indeed nothing.

    The challenge on teh other side is that every hardfork is a risk to exchanges not keeping up. Poloniex has gone down for literal months.

    Does it mean that we can expect that most exchanges will not be allowing to withdraw and deposit STEEM for quite sometime after HF21?

    A reward curve change My current view is that 1 does almost nothing. It's a very gentle tweak. I may be wrong, but that's my current take.

    From my understanding, upvoting comments will be even likely happening now (since it would be only one small upvote, then it's value will be very small).

    ps. Any idea when HF21 will take place?

    Yours Piotr

  • @arcange(79)· 2622d

    Congratulations @aggroed! Your post was mentioned in the Steem Hit Parade in the following category:

    • Comments - Ranked 7 with 65 comments
  • @namiks(77)· 2623d

    Seeing these types of posts really sucks sometimes, and that's only because of how stupidly accurate they are. It's disappointing to see people saying similar things about how much we need more change and how much we really need Steemit Inc to stop just covering their funds while dumping on ours, because it's gone on for far too long. Nothing changes, and every change that appears to show promise tends to fail as everything goes back to how it was prior to those changes.

    It's borderline depressing to see we're all saying the same thing and have done so for far too long with no improvements. I really want to believe HF21 could fix things, but I just have such little faith in Steemit Inc to provide the support it needs.

  • @spectrumecons(75)· 2623d

    I am generally in favour of HF21. I support the SPS. I support higher curation rewards and the downvote pool. I am concerned about the change to the rewards curve. It appears posts with lower payouts will be hit quite hard. Most users will not get many posts over 6 STU (16 Steem). This is likely to provide incentive to buy votes to get onto the linear portion of the curve. I would prefer to keep the rewards curve linear or a gentler non-linear curve.

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  • @revo(62)· 2623d

    With the change to 50:50 (live on palnet now), I feel like I want more votes. If the focus is to shift towards curation, then wouldn't it be better to have more curation votes? Was this ever considered?

  • @abitcoinskeptic(75)· 2623d

    People say 2e12 curve won't do much. Don't worry about it they say. So let's drop it and keep things linear. Maybe add a little step or ban votes with % value under 10sp (ie if you have 100 steem you can't vote less than 10%). Palnet works because Steem is dysfunctional. Good work by the way, but its the cart pulling the horse around here. Palnet and Scot have done more for Steem in 6 months than Steemit mananged in 18.

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  • @marki99(62)· 2623d

    Removed my witness vote for you. You randomly attack Steemit, Inc thinking you can do better. You also are getting arrogant because of your successes on STEEM.

    PALnet won't save steem btw. You are working in the wrong direction.

  • @freddio(60)· 2623d

    sometimes i think if content creators talk about there loss something, there are wrong. If holding Steem is more lucrative, the price should longtime increase. So there get more if we get a higher price in my opinion.

    The Steem Infrastucture is build every day more and more. With RC Delegation and other cool stuff, holding Steem should have more value as today i think.

  • @nonameslefttouse(77)· 2623d
  • @steem-plus(74)· 2623d

    Hi, @aggroed!

    You just got a 0.15% upvote from SteemPlus! To get higher upvotes, earn more SteemPlus Points (SPP). On your Steemit wallet, check your SPP balance and click on "How to earn SPP?" to find out all the ways to earn. If you're not using SteemPlus yet, please check our last posts in here to see the many ways in which SteemPlus can improve your Steem experience on Steemit and Busy.

  • @hiroyamagishi(69)· 2623d

    Good to know that things are working in PAL net. I have a suggestion to grow the community in the country of Venezuela. I have a project of supporting their post every time they review the topic that is explained by brother eli, topics of the bible. People are making video post comment, it's like two birds in one stone. Helping them by encouraging their spirit and monetary support. What do you think of it?

  • @belemo(79)· 2623d

    Okay I'm going to talk about the scrotal infection issue first and put it out there that it is not that serious, fuck you for bringing it up lol.

    Secondly, the Hardfuck doesn't seem like much is going to change and people like Bernie and Traf will still continue to anally rape the reward pool. They're the bane of decentralization and I doubt anything can be done to stop that. I also think a way of making them invest their large stake in some business venture is better than antagonising them. Also, I can't confirm this but I suspect Bernie gets a kick every time he's called out, I might be wrong as I have only seen his dick once(kind of impressive).

    All in all, I'm all in on steem and irrespective of where we go, I'm going too.

  • @edicted(83)· 2623d

    Why does no one talk about how downvotes are going to be bought and sold just like upvotes? Creating a new easy-come-easy-go free resource out of thin air is exactly the way to make the problem worse.

  • @dave-verreault(54)· 2623d

    Thanks :)

  • @tarazkp(86)· 2623d

    I think you are wrong @aggroed; it is a trap. It has trapped many people into revealing just how little attention they pay to trying to understand the platform at all.

  • @drumoperator(67)· 2623d

    "It seems we need other stuff happening on the chain than your trestise on scrotal infections of South African right handed salamanders."

    ... this.

    ... except it would be somebody else's work on scrotal infections of South African right handed salamanders and it would be botted to the front page of trending for all to see how worthwhile Steemit is.

    I've discovered more quality content in three days using the palnet.io browser than in a year and a half actively curating on steem. If this hardfork has done anything positive, it's that it's driven likeminded creatives to onboard on the next best alternative.

    Bring the big stick. A small community of altruistic people >>>>>> flag wars/opinion downvotes/general internet fuckery that makes legit big money investors click off Steemit.com as fast as they arrived.

    "The last portion is 50:50 curation. We have this on PALnet now. Note it hasn't ruined the platform. I actually feel a lot more incentive to make sure I'm curating every day knowing that a healthy dose of curation is coming back my way." -- all the this. Nuff said.

    Thanks for your work and dedication. Single biggest value-add in the ecosystem and (GASP) a little light and positive energy given I was somewhat down on the fact that my steem account is the perfect example of one that's going to get smashed by the hardfork. Now I'm almost grateful for it, as it has spurred on tons of development and changed my thinking about Steem the currency vs. Steem the blockchain that has tons of valuable shit built ontop of it (FINALLY.)

  • @inertia(75)· 2623d

    The real purpose of n^2 was to incentivize people to buy lots of STEEM and power up one account. But when talking about it now, people focus on the anti-sybil part and gloss over the “buy lots of STEEM part.” And n^2 probably rarely inspired anyone to buy lots of STEEM because that aspect was basically only noticed by people who read and understood that part of the white paper.

  • @bitcoinflood(80)· 2624d

    I still don't like the fact that the content creators lose another 10% while the company simply continues to cash in left and right. It seems highly unfair and exactly the systems everyone is promoting that steemit is fighting against such as Facebook. It literally makes no sense why we as a community of users can't restrict their spending and their rewards they are getting for such little work and such flat out in my opinion disrespect to all the members on steemit.

    If we want to truly fix something then that is what needs to be fixed.

    The 50.50 split is such as simple yet effective solution. Palnet did this and now I curate 100% more then what I ever did on steemit. I actually read posts and vote on them and include my own detailed comment after it. To me it has already built a closer and better community and it was such a small/smart and simple change.

    Will do my best to be on the radio show tonight been looking forward to listening to one.

  • @hans001(59)· 2624d

    Hi what about those 1 steem voteplans? How are they going to work things out? With the 50/50 vote rule? Palnet isn't ruined because they haven't things like that in front and it's not the whole steem community but maybe I follow @exyle on that turning totally to pal and just delegate my steempower to something. If it's going to be like steemcoinpan.

  • @justsmile0304(51)· 2624d

    Thanks for sharing the background and especially the benefits of the hardfork from your view. In my opinion,a super small redfishs opinion only, the hardfork21 seems to make it even heavier for new Steemians to get started.... But I hope you are right and the community will receive better and more curation votes in the end.

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  • @metametheus(66)· 2624d

    Great, succinct summary. I take it you'll be supporting the HF21 then?

    Really liked this:

    "Fortunately steem-engine has mute features, so even if a whale buys a shit ton to fuck with a community a community thorugh the owner of the issuing account has the ability to mute them. "

    Had no idea this feature was built into SE... this has been one of the things I've been concerned about as I research about putting together a proposal for a community to go down the SCOT/Tribe path.

    Look, I've posted that I'm uneasy about the culture of flagging; however I'm willing to see whether it actually makes a difference. Changing the creator/curator split I think will be more effective, personally. But then maybe it'll be the combination of the two.

    We've all been able to downvote as part of our responsibility in curating the eco-system, and downvotes will still be valued according to stake, will they not? Will having an amount of 'free' downvotes really make a difference? This is the bit I'm sceptical about....

  • @markkujantunen(77)· 2624d
    The last portion is 50:50 curation. We have this on PALnet now. Note it hasn't ruined the platform. I actually feel a lot more incentive to make sure I'm curating every day knowing that a healthy dose of curation is coming back my way.

    Whales have just as much time every day to do manual curation as everyone else. 50/50 works on Palnet because PAL is much more evenly distributed than STEEM. It's not a fair comparison.

    It seems that Steemit Inc is pushing to make Steemit more of a content quality driven system, which is fine in its own right. I have a feeling that a lot of the smaller accounts frustrated with their diminished rewards will be driven to Palnet and other communities for rewards. Again, fine it its own right. What I'm hoping for, however, is that STEEM will somehow get distributed further in the coming years to decentralize and better secure the main chain. @ocdb is one way to do it, which is why I hope Steemit Inc and some other large stakeholders will keep supporting it for a long time.

  • @revisesociology(82)· 2624d

    Thanks for taking the time to write what I'm going to call a 'witness HF21 position statement' - I'm just going through the Top 21 and seeing how many have - not many, but now I can plus 1!

    PAL is working out great btw. Feels fresh. Less drama!

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @michealb(67)· 2624d

    Yep! wish you guys would hurry it up :)

  • @thecryptodrive(70)· 2624d

    I wasn’t aware that Palnet had the ability to moderate posts at a ui level, that’s great. We did the same thing with TokenBB where mods and admins can hide abusive or duplicate topics or replies on the forum, the splinterlands and palnet forums will have that feature then.

  • @chekohler(76)· 2624d

    Lol once HF21 goes through I hope everyone posts a scrotal infection post in honour of the balls it took to push this through!

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  • @amahovac93(69)· 2624d

    When is Hard Fork 21 taking place? Cuz i dont see the diffrence in rewards as 50/50

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