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#steem

EIP FAQ

EIPfaq.jpg

What are the Economic Goals ?

To get people to vote in a way that honestly reflects their own opinion of a post's appeal with as little negative side effects as possible. Honest voting is imperative for us to succeed as a content discovery and rewards social media platform.

What's the Current Problem?

The current economy is paying content indifferent voting behavior (self voting, vote selling to bid bots, etc.) 4x more than honest curation. This has resulted in an increasing number of stakeholders participating in the former over the latter over time. Some estimates have active SP participating in honest voting at lower than 25% currently. A single glance at trending shows you the gravity of the problem.

What's Being Proposed In The EIP?

The exact numbers have yet to be finalized, but we're likely gravitating towards 50% curation, 25% free downvotes and a convergent linear curve. You can read more about the curve on @vandeberg's post here.

Why Not Make One Change at a Time ?

Because every measure has negative side effects that increase as you turn up the dial. By using multiple measures which compliment each other, we can effectively minimize negative side effects while hopefully still overhaul the status quo voting behavior into one that generally reflects honest opinions on content.

Many before us have considered these measures independently. @kevinwong and I mainly contributed by being among the first to view this as a problem of optimizing economic policy - understanding how multiple measures compliment each other and anticipating a desirable set of behaviors at equilibrium while being sensitive to the extent of negative side effects. We made the recommendation of all 3 measures and their ballpark values (and received immense help from @justinw and @vandeberg for improving our initial curve) which is likely why you see our names associated with the EIP.

What Are the Negative Side Effects of Each Measure?

Curation - On paper, less money going to content creators. (At much higher levels, content creators actually get less in practice too)

Free Downvotes - Modest increase in toxicity anticipated at the recommended amount. (At extreme levels, collusive profit driven downvote cabals and edge case of rewards pool being blocked or nearly blocked)

Convergent Linear - Introduces some level of inequality at the very low end of post rewards. (At extreme level it leads to collusive 'circle jerking' and piling on, as seen under n^2)

Under our recommendations we expect the negative side effects to be moderate (no where near the extremes). We've taken great care to minimize them while hopefully retaining sufficient incentive to compel most actors to vote honestly across the entire system.

How do you Expect These Measures To Work Together to Encourage Honest Voting?

By increasing curation to 50%, we've instantly decreased the profit gap between content indifferent voting and honest voting from 4x to 2x.

A moderate amount of free downvotes is likely further required to deter dishonest voting. At 25% free downvotes and 50% curation, for every abuser, it'll take exactly TWO same sized stakeholders to bring their votes down to average (mean) curation value. That means, we'll need two good actors for each bad actor to bring their rewards down to a point where they might as well be curating honestly (roughly speaking).

Convergent Linear forces all profitable voting behavior into the light to be assessed by voters by rendering posts or comments at the very low end of payouts less profitable. Otherwise, schemes revolving around hiding self votes in spam in an effort to evade downvotes would likely take place.

But Aren't You One of the Bad Actors Traf, Ya Cunt?

There are game theoretical reasons why individual good acts are deterred under a heavily flawed economic system. I can spend $6000 a month fighting abuse with the full knowledge that at least 75% of that money is just flowing into the pockets of others doing the exact same thing.

It's just too expensive and too futile to do anything 'good' in a broken economy. Knowing this, most of us capitulate and choose to just maximize our own stake to mitigate the negative price effects of a failing platform and in the process we make it worse. This is why we desperately need the EIP. I'll likely be switching sides once that's introduced.

We don't create a set of economic rules that rely on good people to be altruistic for the system to work. We create a set of economic rules that force bad people to do good things in order to be profitable.

Also, there's no need for that kind of language.

How Do You Think The EIP Will Affect Self Voters Like Yourself?

We'd be destroyed. That's the idea. And it'll likely have a positive cascading effect.

Currently, I know it'll cost someone $200 a day to take my rewards away only to have most of it go to others just like me. So I doubt they'll bother, if they do, I doubt they'll keep it up and if they do, I can always just sell to a bunch of bid bots and be largely immune from attack. This common knowledge of both the expensive cost and futility of fighting against dishonest voting paralyses the entire system from self correcting.

Under the EIP, it'll only take slightly more than two others of similar stake to my own to kick my rewards down to the point where I'd be making more curating honestly. And because I know it doesn't cost them a cent, they'll likely not relent. So the longer I keep it up, the more money I'd be wasting for not simply choosing to curate. Therefore, rationally, I would likely just curate honestly.

Now I wouldn't be too happy with not being able to self vote while others still do, so I'll likely use my free downvotes to combat other abusers. This also frees up the downvotes that were initially used on me to fight abuse elsewhere. The idea is to get a positive cascading effect and topple the current status quo of content indifferent voting practices.

Wouldn't a Higher Curation Rate Take More Money Away From Authors?

Highly unlikely at 50%, they'll likely see an significant increase in practice. Currently, an ever increasing lion's share of rewards are just going back to stakeholders either through self voting or vote selling. Basically if we're able to get people to mostly vote honestly, 50% of a large pie is much better than 75% of next to nothing for authors, which is what they're getting right now.

What Level of Increased Toxicity are We Looking At Due to 25% Free Downvotes?

There will always be disagreement and negative feelings are unavoidable when real money is involved on a platform like this. There will certainly be some downvotes that are used for purposes other than honest and legitimate reward disagreement, and even honest downvotes are not without contention.

However, the upside is a very real possibility of overhauling this entire platform and converting it into a largely functioning content discovery and rewards platform that it was always intended to be. Think about how many communities would flourish if 100m SP worth of votes flowed honestly towards content based on their general appeal. I believe some level of toxic downvotes are a reasonable price to pay for a real chance at a working platform instead of this shit show we have going on now.

Can You Guarantee The EIP Will Work?

No, and you don't want me to. As every measure here has negative side effects the more you crank it up, there's basically a trade off between how confident one can be of success and the negative side effects we'll incur. The initial numbers would likely need to be further adjusted and optimized over time.

That being said, I personally believe we'll likely see a very impactful and positive change in voting behavior once the EIP is introduced and the dust has settled, especially if it comes with a downvote pool that can be separately delegated from upvotes.

Ultimately, if it works, it was all me, if it doesn't, it was a team effort.

When will the EIP Come?

Hopefully the very next HF alongside SPS. The dev work is minimal and will likely not delay SPS.

Wow! Did You Create the Image for this Post All By Yourself? Are You a Professional Artist?

Fuck you :p

Comments · 112

  • @mortezayousefi(67)· 61d

    Considering this economic proposal was introduced seven years ago to fix voting behavior, do you believe these changes truly restored "honest voting" dynamics to the platform, or did they ultimately lead to the very unintended consequences you expressed concern about in your post?

  • @deliciasayj(54)· 1582d

    Hello @trafalgar. I totally agree with you, an honest vote is very important to achieve our goals and the success we want and to be able to grow more every day.

  • @johnolusegun(71)· 1698d

    Compliments of the Season to you and your family. Greetings from my family here. God bless you.

    IMG_20211010_130011_492.jpg

  • @mattsanthonyit(81)· 1752d

    EIP.....

  • @wrestlingdesires(72)· 1937d

    First, I would like to thank you for the visit to my post. What an amazing welcome :)

    Second, I plan to curate in a fair manner. The site I came from had similar issues in the past, and it was hard to watch. Upvote rings were eventually defeated though :) I have faith that if it still happens here, it can be stopped.

  • @mattsanthonyit(81)· 2148d

    Thanks for visiting my blog today. You really put smile on my face this time again sir🤗💯

  • @rosy-moon(55)· 2210d

    The current economy pays indifferent voter behavior to content (self-election, voting for bots, etc.) 4x more than honest curation.

    fortunately this does not happen here (HIVE) and this is the reason we prefer it here than joining there with self-interested grombolans and enriching bots.

  • @anwars(61)· 2212d

    @trafalgar, what you are discussing really has really happened in steemit before it even when I saw that behavior. I became lazy to make a post. because I used to see steemit. they are more concerned with bots than good writers. if we don't have money then we will feel lonely there. but the good changes have started at HIVE. I see that now the writer is well appreciated here by good people like you. and several others. this will be good for the HiVE platform.

  • @mattsanthonyit(81)· 2251d

    I followed you my friend. Keep the good work on. You are a great Crypto Enthusiasm and a good Mentor.

  • @joythewanderer(81)· 2362d

    Oops dude. Your EIP under threat because of the scammer @ned, the retard shill @justinsunsteemit and their god damn liar exchange pals which are still fooling the gullibles.

  • @cadawg(70)· 2365d

    Hey @trafalgar,

    Please, for the love of all that is steem, vote for the "old" top 20 witnesses. This is a matter of life or death.

    Thanks ~ The Community

  • @dalz(81)· 2365d

    Yo traf ... Vote for witnesses .....

  • @stimburgarin(61)· 2368d

    May I ask you to look at my posts and say what you think of them? And for a little support ... I'm new to this site. Thank you!

  • @mattsanthonyit(81)· 2382d

    Thanks for the support 👍 and encouragement ❣️. We love you. Happy Valentine's Day 💞♨️💯. Greetings from Nigeria.

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @beerlover(65)· 2416d


    Hey @trafalgar, here is a little bit of BEER from @rentmoney for you. Enjoy it!

    Learn how to earn FREE BEER each day by staking.

  • @rentmoney(77)· 2416d

    Thanks for the recent upvote on one of my posts.

    !BEER

  • @melinda010100(80)· 2424d

    Thank you so much for your very generous votes! They are very much appreciated!

  • @whimsical-magic(57)· 2435d

    How kind..! ~ Thanks so much for being an amazing Christmas spirit once again & upvoting my entry thus...! May magic moments find you this season just as well :) ~ ✨ ~

  • @rajib2k5(61)· 2454d

    Do you plan to host a webinar to educate new users about this? I think many would find a value in it.

  • @whimsical-magic(57)· 2461d

    Thank You so much for the very early Christmas present in form of this amazing upvote ~ ✨ ~ ! What a surprise I have never come close to suchlike ever before ~ I practically gave up on this platform but encouragement like this is hard to ignore

  • @parth7878(50)· 2468d

    Hello @trafalgar, after reading your amazing post I really changed the point of view about steemit platform. And believe me. Till now I was nothing but today after getting new life by your upvote it's all yours. I'll support you in every positive action. And sharing your content to my social media in regards of your kindness act.

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @parth7878(50)· 2468d

    Dear sir! I really appreciate your upvote from bottom of my heart. It's not only gave me new life but also gave me purpose to not leave steemit community.

    Thanks a lot a Million & trillan times for upvote my post.

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @mlmtraffic(51)· 2474d

    Awesome post, I like it.

    I have Upvoted and following you. Thank you so much for your love!

  • @theonlyway(69)· 2479d

    Friend @trafalgar, first I want to thank the positive votes to appreciate my publications. I really thank you very much, on the other hand I received a negative vote in a publication about Kiwi, I would like to know what it is, it is so that I do not make the same mistake again, thanks in advance.

    Source

  • @phage93(69)· 2480d

    Hi @trafalgar, we noticed that you are flagging this user all the time, could you please tell us the reason? https://steemit.com/@capitanonema

  • @capitanonema(64)· 2480d

    It's already the second time that you put me downvote, you, traf, raindrop and edriseur, explain to me why? It's so funny?

  • @carlgnash(71)· 2480d

    Wow just saw your downvote on this post https://steemit.com/creativecoin/@spintwister/nudity-is-a-form-of-art-not-a-sin another really amazing post that did not buy votes. Are you just flagging posts that @curie and @OCD / @ocdb / @acidyo vote for some reason? Just trying to make sense of what you are doing. Nothing you have posted in your comments about the EIP and downvote pool explain why you would be downvoting amazing posts that did not buy paid votes. You really should make a post about your current actions, at the very least.

    EDIT Seems likely that you have set auto flags to counter bid bots, and have not adjusted your flags after the bid bots started trailing curation groups

  • @carlgnash(71)· 2481d

    @trafalger why are you flagging some really good quality posts that have not paid for votes? Please remove the flags on maybe the funniest post I have ever seen on Steem which did not pay for any votes...

    EDIT Seems likely that you have set auto flags to counter bid bots, and have not adjusted your flags after the bid bots started trailing curation groups

  • @paullifefit(56)· 2501d

    Wow! You down voted me without any kind of consult or discussion? I’m holding a mini giveaway on this article - doesn’t that make a difference?

  • @lostprophet(54)· 2506d

    Thank you very much for downvoting me. BR

  • @rayheyna(69)· 2507d

    Thank you for voting on my blog! I followed you:) Have a good day♡

  • @selow.broe(25)· 2524d

    hello @trafalgar, sorry if I disturb your time. I just want to say that me-tarzan raped the steem prize pool. in one day he posted up to 12 times. and he doesn't vote for others. he only voted for himself. it really looks like rubbish.

    I'm also sorry to contact you from here. I don't want to report this openly. because I was afraid that someone else would tell me-tarzan that I had reported it. I really love steem. but I was unable to downvote him. because I have very little power. that's all I want to say. I hope you check it.

  • @khaiyoui(77)· 2525d

    hello. I know this is irrelevant with your post. but this is only way to communicate with you as you dont have recent post. and I wonder if there is any reason why down vote on my post. I dont know you well. but I want to know why it happens and if there is anything I can do about it. I cant say I'm the best steemian but I'm trying it keeps going. so hope u tell me why it happens. thanks :)

  • @clove71(77)· 2533d

    I do not know you but I was just downvoted by you. I am here on the STEEM blockchain making videos and posts for people in Splinterlands AKA Steem Monsters. I am home making $9 an hour PT hours for taking care of my disabled 23 year old son. I just want to show you who and what you took from us today. Roughly $10 which is a lot to people like me making minimum wage and especially why I have to stay home but I see not everyone has compassion in life. I used to love the STEEM blockchain, I have been here for 2 years and have loved any small or big amount I have earned here. Hopefully, you will please remove the upvote.

    Chris Love 17662577_1019578851505527_3794652989549969408_n.jpg

    IMG_1084.JPG

  • @good.stuff(1)· 2533d

    This Guy

  • @good.stuff(1)· 2536d

    This Guy

  • @good.stuff(1)· 2536d

    This Guy

  • @good.stuff(1)· 2537d

    This Guy

  • @lighteye(77)· 2539d

    What are the results after the HF21&22, @trafalgar? Can you see a steem price rise somewhere in the future?

  • @ciscorodriguez50(60)· 2539d

    Hello friend, I hope you can see my drawings with a different style and comment and vote ... thank you for your support will be very helpful

  • @ciscorodriguez50(60)· 2539d

    Hello friend, I hope you can see my drawings with a different style and comment and vote ... thank you for your support will be very helpful

  • @good.stuff(1)· 2540d

    This Guy

  • @good.stuff(1)· 2540d

    This Guy

  • @rudyardcatling(65)· 2541d

    you're a total misterdelegation dicksucking retard i detected you even if your last post was months ago

    just by burning a few steem

    there's FACTIONS here, ...bro

    your good content ?

    you downvote

    you censor

    o wait a minute i have to PAY to post this hold on

    1 steem maybe ?

    if thats enough then i paid for the privilege of replying and you owe me the exact amount you downvoted

    YOU BITCH

    dicksucking crowd-following wannabe ... maybe you can get your fans to attack me too

  • @hiroyamagishi(69)· 2542d

    Hello @trafalgar, I want to seek your attention.

    Let me introduce myself, I am a cyber worker(you can call it that way) of church of God which is led by brother Eli Soriano to help Venezuela and Nigeria by upvoting their comment and post.

    Screenshot_20190908-134347_Twitter.jpg

    https://twitter.com/elcaminoantiguo/status/1117891913313423360?s=19

    This is the confirmation in our official twitter account that I have the rights to post his video on Steemit.

    Brother Eli Soriano and Brother Daniel Razon is philantrophist and running different charity programs.

    I talked to him(brother eli) about Steemit when I am in brasil and he got interested of helping people with economic needs by upvoting them.

    I am looking for your support by manually voting people who makes video comment in our topic which you can find in hashtag #broelisoriano. Or if you pleased, you can delegate on us so we can manually curate them all. We have many charity programs all over the globe so for the meantime we cannot focus all our resources to buy up steem power. Can I private message you?

    P.S. It's like hitting two birds in one stone. Promoting the words of God by helping people. Also, bringing more people here on this wonderful blockchain.

  • @good.stuff(1)· 2543d

    This Guy

  • @eco-alex(76)· 2545d

    Hey Trafalgar! I noticed you gave me a good downvote on my post. I wanted to say that it was REALLY not my intention to get to #1 spot or have such a s high reward on this .. I had two bots that didn't seem to work ( which later voted), and didnt do the math when i was bidding, and was a bit surprised to see it launch so high,.. i wanted to get in the top #20, which would have been suffficient for me to promote this cause..

    Having said that, in this post you can discover that I had basically offered my life, for free, to help create a very unique ecoVillage, helping others to get off-grid for free with proper hard graft for years to come.. and create a new model for living.. with no personal gain ... it is a highly altruistic endeavour.. and so im also not of the opinion that it wasn't worth of being high up there in the trending page.

    What iM curious to know is , did you flag it because you don't like agree with the concept, or just because you dont think it should have $100+ rewards.. A big part of me doing this promotion was to discover the sentiments of the people on Steem, and whether there is the kind of support I had hoped would be present here, bearing in mind the nature of blockchain ethos and decentralisation..

    Thanks a lot, i respect your freedom to flag this and am not upset, but still am very curious what your reasons were.. Thanks! Alex

  • @adsacto(33)· 2545d

    So your way to get people to vote and do the things you want done the way you want them do do it is to flag them and prevent them from gaining any growth?

    Regardless of what who or why they are trying to raise funds you are going to flag them because you think they should not be allowed to spend their Steem on Advertisement to get their post seen by others so others might also get involved.

    Sounds a bit like dictatorship. When you yourself use bots.

  • @olasamuel(65)· 2565d

    Hello sir @trafalgar. How have you been? I will like to ask you for a favor please. I really don't know if you would tolerate someone asking you for this, but I think it's better I give it a try. Who knows! I might get lucky..lol.

    I will like to ask for your support in terms of upvote please. Probably you can set my account to get an auto-upvote from you. I will be elated if granted this request.

    (NB: I will be very much ready to give you reason why I need this incase you need one)

    Thanks sir!

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @amirtheawesome1(72)· 2622d

    Honestly, and take my opinion for the little it is worth, I am cheering for this and any type of changes that aim more toward good content. First of all let me say that if I were in your place I would do EXACTLY what you have been doing and probably way more.

    In the end I think what would gravitate more people to stay and join is the idea that they would find good content of all kind, from simple gif and comment, long historical or scientific posts, photography, music, and of course COMedy because when I joined steemit I found @comedyopenmic and I stuck around not because of the payments but as time went by it became frustrating to see all of what transpired within my time here.

    Having more people come and stay, places like whalshares are having a lot of unsatisfied steemains moving there, is essential to the success of steemit.

    Maybe I am not even making sense here. But overall I just find this worth the shot despite the risk because some of us are still doing this for the love of making good content. Like I spend a lot of my free time to research stuff like world war 2 and Hitler just to bring out good content, last time I left I ended up coming back while being hesitant but I feel if I leave I won’t comeback which is not a loss in a singular sense but you might end up having having a whole site filled with just self voters and no content to attract people from the outside. So I like this plan and most importantly the spirit it is being pitched with. Have a great day

  • @dj123(61)· 2630d

    "But Aren't You One of the Bad Actors Traf, Ya Cunt?"

    Haha.... my fav Traffy is back!

    Fuck you too! :p

    $Rewarding 100%

  • @sweetsnax(41)· 2639d

    Hi, @trafalgar, I am from @SnaxTeam I see that your every post is very popular. You have not written for a long time, here is the first post, and immediately a huge amount of comments and upvotes. Now everyone is discussing hardfork, Steam rewards. Have you heard about our project #Snax? Famous steemians like @dragosroua and @liberosist are our block producers Snax is a blockchain platform. It was created for people to receive rewards for their social activity (tweets, Steem posts, and so on). We have our own view on a fair distribution of rewards, different from Steem (this is described here https://hackernoon.com/decentralizing-social-media-rewards-steem-and-snax-comparison-ac17201824cc).

    We have already spent several rounds of rewards. And you are one of the leaders of our Attention rating now https://snax.one/steem?page=1. I hope it can be insteresting for you and your subscribers. Join now and start getting a Snax reward https://snax.one/. Ready to answer your questions here. Or you can write to us in the channel Discord https://discordapp.com/channels/509371605542109185/578602854437093426/ We will be glad to see you in our community)

  • @revo(62)· 2641d

    I laffed. :) You must be a Pom or an Aussie.

  • @arcange(79)· 2642d

    Congratulations @trafalgar! Your post was mentioned in the Steem Hit Parade in the following categories:

    • Comments - Ranked 4 with 98 comments
    • Pending payout - Ranked 3 with $ 150,29
  • @spectrumecons(75)· 2642d

    Hey @trafalgar, great that you posted an FAQ. I think many people oppose the EIP because they are not factoring for changes in behaviour but rather just assume the abuse to continue.

    Changing the rewards curve to convergent linear rewards could be tricky to get right. I also not sure if is a necessary change. I am most in favour of increasing curation rewards; they need to be at least 50% to be sufficient incentive for a change in behaviour.

    There is still a problem with the proposal to raise curation rewards. With the price of SBD around US$1; curation rewards would be 50%. If the price of SBD increases, as I suspect it will at some point, the curation rewards will fall.

    For example, a post has a payout of 100 STU (Steem Token Units). If the curation rewards are 50%, 50 STU goes to the content creator and 50 STU goes to the curator. The content creator will receive 25 Steem Power divided by the price of Steem and 25 SBD. The curator will receive 50 Steem Power divided by the price. If the price of Steem is US$1, the curator will receive 50 Steem Power. If the price of Steem Power is U$$5, the curator will receive 10 Steem Power. If the price of SBD increases, the amount of SBD that a content creator receives does not fall. Therefore, the content creator will obtain a higher share of rewards as the price of SBD increases. The table below contains the curation rewards at various prices of SBD.

    Price of SBD (US$) Percentage Curation Rewards
    1 50.0%
    2 40.0%
    3 33.3%
    4 28.6%
    5 25.0%
    6 22.2%
    7 20.0%
    8 18.2%
    9 16.7%
    10 15.4%

    This problem can be solved if SBD can be successfully pegged to the US Dollar.

    If pegging SBD cannot be reliably implemented, Steem Power could be paid out to curators in both SBD and Steem Power in the same manner that it is to content creators.

  • @kingscrown(82)· 2642d

    traflagar is back!~!!

  • @stackin(78)· 2642d

    How do I gamifiy this new proposal?? 🤣

    Posted using Partiko iOS

  • @luegenbaron(65)· 2642d

    What about Resteems?

    In my opinion the most important curation tool isnt being rewarded..

    Also while I understand it's important to have a good basis, you should also start to rebuilt Steemit. Cuz that's the layer people use.

    Not the steem Code but the Steemit Code (frontend) decides about what is shown on for example trending.

    Also you shouldnt have changed to linear rewards in the first place.

    Insead of really getting something right, we are in a destructive repair loop.. Just finally decentralize and let the community decide. Central entity is not decentralized.

    Use ur ninja stake to fund what the community wants.

  • @anthonyadavisii(73)· 2642d

    I have been preaching the value of honest curation for so long so I agree with that sentiment but I don't see how this will achieve this.

    50/50 seems like it would amplify the curation sniping game which is mostly content agnostic (some use certain metadata in their vote prediction strategy) and reward those that predict votes.

    Will some manual curators get lucky from time to time and predict organic voting based on the substance of content? Perhaps but I am convinced the vast majority of profitable curation will be simply mapping out autovotes and beating them to the punch.

    Will honest manual curators will have any conceivable advantage over a bot curator? I am doubtful of this.

    As for free downvotes, I think this notion reflects a very optimistic view of humanity. I would go so far as to call it naive. Now the bad actors can still self-vote but additional they have a quiver of free downvotes to employ to any users that would take action against their abuse.

    I have been told by my colleagues at @steemflagrewards to wait and see about this but I don't think it will bode well for our kind that have sacrificed our SP against abuse.

    The network lacked proper incentives so we created them. Think we have a good system going of crowdfunded moderation.

    Now, I am concerned with out ability to reward the activity of finding and dealing with abuse to include the push back we get from abusers when they have free downvotes.

    I guess the plus is SFR will be able to downvote a couple times a day when there is some really egregious abuse. Of that, there is no lack.

    Appreciate you at least trying to do something even if I don't have the greatest expectation. It is what it is. Maybe if this doesn't pan out, you can give our off chain solution a look and consider supporting what we do.

  • @ubg(58)· 2642d

    make curation pay in cash.

    Posted using Partiko iOS

  • @mstafford(68)· 2642d

    Is there any particular reason / rationale as to why the system works on stake-based voting? I understand the logic behind giving a portion of the inflation to stake-holders as interest -- but the more I think about it, the less and less it makes sense to have large-stakeholders votes (which is essentially an opinion) on content discovery worth more than others.

    One almost certainly has to assume that most people are just going to vote for themselves if they're able to give themselves a massive portion of the reward pool and only worry about the occurrence of a similar sized whale starting a flag war with them.


    Couldn't a lot of the observed 'unfairness'/broken-economics/user-retention issues be fixed by making every up/down vote (while maintaining the same mechanics for variable vote weight % and voting-mana whatnots) worth the same amount of rShares? Maybe decreasing the size of the reward pool as a whole, while increasing the pool for interest to stakeholders (to incentivize investors and authors/curators to hold SP) and implementing vote-equality would be more effective than just tweaking the split between authors and curators?

    While I enjoy watching the whale flag-wars as much as the next person --

  • @zinku(41)· 2642d

    Best

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @bil.prag(76)· 2642d

    so you are here saying that you will manually curate (let's say) 100 random people a day with this new system. and you will spend time to find new and small users and will vote for them even they have no votes (because they are new) knowing that with this new curve you will earn much less?

    no one is telling us what will happen with new and small accounts. and small by this new rules could be 3000 SP. And i do hope we all want a lot more people here, or maybe not?

    You must be an artist, i have a very similar artwork on my last post, and yes i am an artist.

  • @guiltyparties(74)· 2642d

    Finally you made it into a post. Many salient points.

  • @bashadow(70)· 2642d

    The current economy is paying content indifferent voting behavior (self voting, vote selling to bid bots, etc.) 4x more than honest curation.

    I vote on content, nothing proposed for the EIP is going to really change the vote habits of the larger accounts. My vote at 100% is slightly less than four cents. Which means I only need to find 20 or so post that I like and value enough to vote on. Most days I do not have a problem finding those 20 people to vote on.

    No one is going to bat an eye at my 100% or 50% vote. It is simply impossible for a large account to do "Honest Curation". Look at how hard it is for you to find things to vote Honestly on. If you do not want your account sitting at 100% vote power earning nothing, no rewards, I know some people do not mind that, an investor wants to use his money/vote power to make more money. It will do no good and be impossible for him to find a sufficient amount of content in a reasonable time to provide a vote that will not be downvoted due to providing excessive rewards.

    How long before a large account that can vote at $20.00 for 100% vote, $10.00 for a 50% vote, before his votes are being downvoted? how long before he decides he has spent enough time trying to find 20 things to vote on and gives up? As the price and the value of steem rises, the problem is only going to become more difficult. It would be nice if people only voted on stuff they found, on stuff they read, but the larger the account the more stuff you need to find to give a reasonable vote on that is not going to seem like an excessive reward.

    Unless of course the whole idea is to get a lot of content voted up to the multiples of 1000's value wise to show the rest of the world how much money can be made on steem blockchain.

    I do not like the bid bots, I do not like the vote selling, but the reality is that it is impossible to do away with them. They let the larger accounts be an active part of the steem economy with out sending it back to the days of five cent value per steem.

    Ask your self will any of these changes stop you from self voting every now and then just to lower your vote power and have it earn a little bit of steem for you?

  • @evolved08gsr(58)· 2643d

    Did anyone consider the previous failure of 50-50 author-curator rewards?

    I'm guessing that past actions is not an indicator that this "new" change is likely to fail again?

    I'm not trying to be a jerk, but trying to understand how changing from a "broken system" to a "previously broken system" is a step forward?

  • @spiderwhale(25)· 2643d

    hopefully the dolphins and larger accounts on this platform really push the downvote initiative because it's us who have risked the most. The only way we are going to see our investment gain in value is if we start make it unprofitable to be a bad actor.

    When is the next HF scheduled to occur?

  • @masterthematrix(61)· 2643d

    The EIP proposal is IMO missing the opportunity to re-structure the Steem Ecosystem for the upcoming Dapp Economy. Here is my take on this.

    My biggest concern with this EIP is that blogging and Steemit.com is still the main source to "mine Steem". But we all want to have a thriving SMT and Dapp economy. That is an unfair privilege for Steemit.com and blogging in general compared to all other dapps like Steemhunt, Magic dice or Steemmonsters. IMO the whole POB mechanism should be removed from the baselayer Steem and should be put in the hands of SMT and communities. Steempower should only be good for voting on witnesses, voting on worker proposals from the foundation and maybe vote on SMT main accounts to allocate some Steem from the reward pool. When SMT and communities are here than those admins should have control over the reward curve mechanism and POB they want to implement. But if we leave Steem with blogging only mining than its going to be an on going issue while we move towards an dapp economy.

  • @roleerob(71)· 2643d

    Good morning (here) @trafalgar. Your account is new to me and I am here commenting on your post due to following a “multiple links trail” of various resteems leading to it …

    ”That means, we'll need two good actors for each bad actor to bring their rewards down to a point where they might as well be curating honestly”

    ”I can spend $6000 a month fighting abuse with the full knowledge that at least 75% of that money is just flowing into the pockets of others doing the exact same thing.”

    ”It's just too expensive and too futile to do anything 'good' in a broken economy. Knowing this, most of us capitulate and choose to just maximize our own stake to mitigate the negative price effects of a failing platform and in the process we make it worse. This is why we desperately need the EIP. I'll likely be switching sides once that's introduced.”

    [emphasis added mine}

    I have chosen to invest my time in commenting (typically not a profitable use of my time …) on the basis on finding a lot of revealing input on what has been an enormously frustrating part of my “journey” on the Steem blockchain. You have chosen to “shine the light” on it in a way I have not found before now (of course it may be “in here” somewhere, but how do we find content in anything approaching a time-efficient manner …)

    ”We don't create a set of economic rules that rely on good people to be altruistic for the system to work. We create a set of economic rules that force bad people to do good things in order to be profitable.”

    Rather than taking the “high road” and leading by example approach, ultimately, it appears to this Steemian you are proposing that the ancient WIIFM (what’s in it for me) principle will be our “salvation.” If this goes through, then I’m sure we’ll all be very interested to find out if that is in fact the case …

    However, the upside is a very real possibility of overhauling this entire platform and converting it into a largely functioning content discovery and rewards platform that it was always intended to be.”

    In the hope that you know (as a self-confessed “player,” if nothing else …) more about this subject than the vast majority of the rest of us “in here,” I have supported and resteemed your post. I sincerely appreciate your straight-up style and straightforward honesty in writing it.

    Have a good day!

  • @cloudspyder(60)· 2643d

    Can we test it first on a testnet for a year to get accurate feed back. Deployment without testing is chaos.

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  • @martie7(62)· 2643d

    What are the Economic Goals ?

    To get people to vote in a way that honestly reflects their own opinion of a post's appeal with as little negative side effects as possible. Honest voting is imperative for us to succeed as a content discovery and rewards social media platform.

    Allright. Let's remove curation rewards. Any upvote = donate from good people. Every author can earn +25% more rewards than he/she getting at now

    Facebook has not curation rewards. YouTube has not any rewards for your vote. You are voting for FREE.

    If I want to start earning more money I start sell my votes to bidbots. It's so easy.

  • @gikitiki(62)· 2643d


    Social Media (of all forms) will always be an exercise in Game Theory. The EIP does look like it is head and shoulders above the current and previous configurations.

    Making it more beneficial to go from Bad to Good instead of Good to Bad should be a huge improvement.

  • @yallapapi(70)· 2643d

    How exactly does this solve the “problem”? Authors get less rewards, controversial posts are encouraged to be downvoted, and bid bots will still be profitable if they upvote themselves or proxy accounts. Sorry but it sounds like a terrible idea and really just a lazy solution. If anything it’s just going to encourage even more circlejerking

  • @preparedwombat(79)· 2643d

    After the debacle of HF20, the rush to HF21 should give us pause. Have we learned nothing?

    But, damn, it’s good to see a long-form @trafalgar post after such a long hiatus.

  • @daio(73)· 2643d

    it is logical) scary because there are no guarantees))

  • @funtraveller(76)· 2643d

    Hi @trafalgar

    What's your opinion about cross-posted Instagram and Tweets to Steemit (Share2steem function)?

  • @juvyjabian(72)· 2643d

    Hello there, its been a while. What does EIP stands for by the way?

    Posted using Partiko iOS

  • @por500bolos(68)· 2643d

    To get people to vote in a way that honestly reflects their own opinion of a post's appeal with as little negative side effects as possible.

    After reading this post and everything about EIP so far. I'm actually convinced that the only way to create a honest voting system should and must be:

    ¡That no one can vote unless they have read entirely the posts and had left a thoughtful, coherent and relevant comment first before voting! };)

  • @nonsowrites(76)· 2643d

    I'm not too smart to comprehend fully everything that is been said here. It looks like a good idea. However I feel the proposal is highly speculative and can equally go wrong. A 20% increase in my curation reward means nothing to me. To a whale it is significant. Doesn't mean they will discover my content. The reliance on whales to act accordingly should stop. Ever since the introduction of falls this blockchain has been less about them and more about the people using steem. I think we should keep it that way Chances are they would simply join a curation trail and that's that.

    I don't see my activities changing with if these things are been implemented. Most likely my activities will reduce. I would simply leverage on autovotes like I have and share my creative resource amongst different platforms.

    I think the problem of content discovery can only be solved if more power (stake) is invested in community. We saw a significant change in distribution when dapps arrived. This is because they got delegation to run their operates and reward users of their dapps. The same cab happen if steemit empowers communities like they did dapps.

    Can we develop front ends with unique algorithms that promote quality posts based on engagement and other meaningful yardsticks? Isn't that doable? Won't that change the face of our trending pages?

    I also believe that if accounts that are supposed to track spamming activities are doing their job effectively we will also reduce the impact of bad actors. People act badly because that's just who they are. It has little to do with economic policies. I'm not hoping that a change in steem's economic model will deter them. They will simply find their way around it. Like you said there are loopholes and they can exploit that.

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @nonameslefttouse(77)· 2643d

    Percentages, numbers.. pff. Geek speak. No offense to all you geeks out there. Those numbers scare people though. "Fifty percent! This is an outrage!" They'll say. "Nobody will work for that!" They'll say.

    Screenshot (504).png

    Good luck with convincing me nobody wants to create content for Youtube. Google takes 45%. A small handful of people get rich, buy yachts, do cocaine, while expensive hookers feed them grapes off the vine, or something (I heard. I haven't actually been to those parties.)

    So anyway, those folks fearing the fifty don't really know what they're talking about.

    We all want to see some measure of success here. I'm a content producer, I know the business, and I know it well (or a least well enough to feel comfortable in my own skin, here.)

    Look at youtube. Success there consists of thousands of upvotes on videos. Usually far more views than "likes" or "dislikes", but look at those votes. The video I'm watching now has over 30000 likes. That's what we're shooting for here, correct? Giving folks a reason to upvote content after consuming it? Sounds reasonable.

    So if my work receives 30000 upvotes because people want to vote again, and I get a penny per vote, I'm doing better than I am now, even if all I get is a 10 percent cut.

    Do I even make sense? 50%, at first, might be tough. More people willing to vote means more money though, eventually. In my mind, that's the only way it can work.

    Some folks out there will end up spending thousands "donating" to their favorite streamers or content producers. They get nothing in return, monetarily. People seem to think this behavior is the way of the future. I personally think it's idiotic when we have a platform like this place. Why throw that money away like these content producers are strippers working the pole when one could simply INVEST in a platform, support their favorite content producers by voting, get a return on their initial investment, plus have the opportunity to pull out with no strings attached at any time. That's like buying a lifelong subscription to HBO, for free, plus you get paid. How is this simplicity consistently flying over so many heads? How do the professionals here have trouble cleaning up that thought and selling it? That's the future of the entertainment industry right there, in my mind, and it shouldn't be so damn hard to get it right.

    BLAH! I could go on and on for days about this shit. I'm rambling, I guess. Whatever. I'll just hit post for the fuck of it. Enjoy.

  • @josediccus(83)· 2643d

    Lol last statement was epic i was still contemplating on the good and bad of what I've read lol

  • @tezmel(70)· 2643d

    This is heavy and refreshing... It's also always good to you on my feed. How I miss your uncensored writings :D

  • @moon32walker(72)· 2643d

    Yes to all! When this hits live I'll be the fist one to undelegate from bidding bot I'm delegating to for more than one year now. Linear curve with 25%curation rewards did nothing good for the Steem price, nothing good for content discovery, nothing good for new people when most of us delegated to bidbots. Curation needs to be at 50% today, this won't magically fix everything but it will be a step in the right direction!

  • @steemitboard(66)· 2643d

    Congratulations @trafalgar! You have completed the following achievement on the Steem blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

    You made more than 59000 upvotes. Your next target is to reach 60000 upvotes.

    You can view your badges on your Steem Board and compare to others on the Steem Ranking If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word STOP

    To support your work, I also upvoted your post!

    Vote for @Steemitboard as a witness to get one more award and increased upvotes!
  • @holybranches(60)· 2643d

    Bitcoin only works because the game theory FORCES all nodes to ACT in the best interest of the network.

    Not because there are good people more than there are bad.

    That's the standard of this new technology we're trying to build. At least, I believe so.

    Will this EIP give us such?

    No.

    Will it get us closer to it?

    YES.

  • @dandesign86(69)· 2643d

    I’m glad to see someone fighting to improve the platform, for the betterment of Steem and steemit in general. I think it’s a hell of a lot better than just sitting back and complaining, and sure it won’t correct everything, but I’m pretty sure it’s going to be a hell of a lot better than now.

    Ultimate we are supposed to be a social network but one simple thing is not working in the current state which is that money is not flowing around and people are not communicating. I might as well start posting pictures of my ass, no one will notice, they probably just think it’s another selfie of mine (can’t blame them though, it can be hard to tell the difference sometimes).

    Further more to just wait for the SMT to solve everything sounds a bit naive, if a company launches a product that is “broken” will you buy it based on the promise that the next model is going to be awesome - so don’t worry ? I think not.

    I support your proposal, and I hope most people will realize that it’s worth a try, because things can’t get worse as I see it, only better if we have the guts to change a bit.

  • @michealb(67)· 2643d

    Scary and exciting all at the same time love it!

  • @skramatters(67)· 2643d

    Resteemed, your honesty is refreshing and while I know this is contentious I just can't see things getting worse.

    I listened to a heated convo on that bastard discord earlier today and you of course were brought up as the discussion was about why EIP now?

    It seemed like a crazy idea when first introduced by you collaborators but some feel it's recently gained traction due to an overall sense of panic.

    I think it's valid to point out that proposing a new economics model that's the lesser of two evils is an admission that it cannot be more broken than it is currently.

    This is difficult to come to terms with. But, as a relatively new user that is in the minority as an adopter attracted by a censorship resistant platform that offers a steep learning curve but rewarding edification in all things crypto I see this as a step to less of a plutocracy.

    As it is nobody like myself will ever stick around here as I have. I feel I represent the moronic normie social media users that are using every other centralised platform in mass and we can save this place from itself.