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#philosophy

Why Rewards Have to Change... (Fair warning, this is a long one)

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- - - I haven't written one of these posts in a while as I honestly got tired of being ignored for over a year, but we've finally reached that inevitable point where rewards are changing, because as many of us saw early on, there's really no choice if we want the platform to survive. Today I'll share my thoughts (again) on the problem with steemit's rewards breakdown and why PALnet is doing something different, regardless of what happens in the next hardfork.

We need to first establish some baseline concepts that some people seem to struggle with. First is that value is entirely subjective. Equality of opportunity does not equal equality of outcome. In general, human beings act in their own self interest and while some of us find moments to rise above this "human condition," the overall trend remains the same and currently dictates the norm.

The current problem with curation and vote selling on steemit stems from two core problems. One is that self voting is the most profitable thing to do and getting rid of it won't solve the problem as people can just make multiple accounts to vote themselves. The second major problem is that curation is basically asking someone to give away 75% of their potential earnings because someone did something and if we can accept that value is subjective, then it's only logical that the thing the person did doesn't provide enough value to the other person to make them voluntarily give up resources that they could give themselves. If we're going to ever have a content driven economy with real world value attached to it, via advertisement or other means such as a rewards pool, then we have to realize that consumers are just as important as the content creators. Sure, the consumers don't come without the content, but the content has no value without the consumers so we end up with a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario when it comes to creating the value. Steemit's problem is that most people are trying to be a content creator and the platform has little to no actual consumption of the content.

The consensus reached with the PALnet team was to go with 50/50 rewards for authors and curators. This is a more balanced approach than steemit is currently using, but there is some thought out there among my fellow deep thinkers that to make a content driven economy we'd actually have to push things further. I'm not saying we will or plan to with PALnet, but I want anyone that reads this to honestly consider what could happen if the split was more like 20/80 in favor of curation.

The general theory is that while self voting would still remain the most profitable, the twenty percent sacrifice to upvote the best content would be a worthwhile investment to anyone holding tokens and curating as a source of income. Driving new traffic and users to the site while also focusing the vast majority of the rewards on the top quality content would increase the value of the platform as a whole. There is also the likelihood that people wouldn't post unless they felt they were delivering the absolute best quality content possible, as they would need to gain the support of lots of stake holders to make their efforts worthwhile.

In the previous example, sure the author may only get 20% of the rewards, but if a post is naturally valued in the hundreds or thousands of dollars versus the current dynamic where a natural $10 post is far from the norm and the author only gets 75% of that, then we can deduce the author would be earning significantly more even with the smaller percent of the rewards. The curators also wouldn't feel like they were just giving money away and wasting their time curating. It's a win-win-win as everyone's getting paid and the platform features and supports the best content to bring in new users. The point of all of this is to hopefully grant some perspective as to why rewards have to change. We've tried the current method for far too long and it's resulted in less engagement and the poorest content quality I've seen on the blockchain since this all started. Most professional content creators left, most curators don't bother anymore, and no one but bag-holders are making any money and the value continues to decline as they pay themselves for the privilege of holding tokens. We didn't get stagnate, we started deteriorating.

If we can look at the simple facts stated at the start of this quite verbose post and understand that people generally do what is in their best, short-term interest, then we have to align the rewards model in a way that makes them doing so also be in the best interest of the platform. People need incentive to hold tokens, which is where an increase in curation rewards comes in, and we need to get rid of the garbage spam, which is where less author rewards come in. We have to find the right balance and that will take some experimentation.

It's not about paying quality content creators less, it's about getting people to actually use their stake in a positive manner that benefits the whole ecosystem and removing the incentive to spam by making it much less profitable as it does nothing but devalue the whole platform. Of course this all just my perspective and I already know not everyone agrees, but hopefully it provides some food for thought. Much love.

Comments · 23

  • @amahovac93(69)· 2622d

    I thought i was the only one who liked the 50/50 votings system. People just cant see the forest from the trees. This article sums it up perfectly!

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @wulff-media(73)· 2624d

    So if I understand this right you want to reward people even more for clicking their way down the trending list as quickly as they can? This is what higher curation rewards will incentivize, not actually looking for quality content.

    Plus, it doesn't feel FAIR. I'm one of those who spend a lot of time and thought in creating content (videos, photography). Aside from the time, it's costing real money to ride around to find footage to share. All this is supposed to be worth 20%, while the mere clicking on stuff is worth 80%?

    You do this, I will be gone, too. O.K., my prime motivation isn't money; it's a hobby, but still...

    So here is my suggestion: Why not go exactly the opposite way? NO CURATION REWARD at all, 100% towards the authors. So no incentive to like garbage anymore. Also, no whales and pond scum anymore. One man, one vote.

    This I would combine with a surprise effect: No showing how high the author reward will be, no indication how many likes received, no trending lists, a secret vote so to speak - for seven days. Then rewards are decided AFTER the fact: All systemwide "likes" are totaled up and authors get their share of the reward pool based on the percentage of total likes they managed to get.

    How something like this could be implemented I leave to you blockchain experts. I'm just venting my limited view which I haven't thought through all the way, nor am I interested in doing so.

    In closing, Netflix isn't paying people to watch their offerings, it's the other way around. They do that by putting on stuff that people want to see. And that stuff comes from creators who are being paid halfway decent.

  • @metametheus(66)· 2625d

    So I have a personal problem with flagging/downvoting content... I've been thinking about writing a post about that perspective...

    BUT, if I interpret your reasoning correctly, your suggestion that a 20/80 split in favour of curator means we are using positive/generative reinforcement to prevent spamming and shitposts, because flagging as negative/limiting reinforcement combined with higher payouts to creators hasn't worked?

    I think I can see your point.... it feels kinda counter-intuitive.... it will be interesting to see, and perhaps palnet as a kind of testnet would be a great way to test the hypothesis.

  • @bitcoinflood(80)· 2626d

    A 50/50 makes sense to me simply because it can't be cheated or there is no benefit to cheating. You earn the same for voting up your own stuff as you do voting for someone else.

    What would happen in a 60/40 split or more would be alt accounts again voting for their own stuff. I see a 50/50 being the only fair and most rewarding system when I sit back and think about it.

    As soon as there is even the smallest of edges to get more rewards in one direction they will come in droves.

    Steemit itself could benefit hugely from this itself.

    I have though about removing self votes but then again you still run into the same issue with alt accounts sadly. It's a real shame what people will do to try and game/cheat systems for pennies and it happens everywhere. It is why every social network that paid cash such as Yuwie, TSU etc all failed. You just can't give people free stuff without them abusing the hell out of it lol

  • @arcange(79)· 2626d

    Congratulations @clayboyn! Your post was mentioned in the Steem Hit Parade in the following category:

    • Comments - Ranked 5 with 84 comments
  • @aaronli(76)· 2626d

    Good article. May I translate it to Chinese so the CN users can read also?

    Posted using Partiko iOS

  • @spectrumecons(75)· 2626d

    It is very interesting what Palnet are doing with curation. I make it a point to search through Palnet content before other content to curate because of the higher curation rewards.

    Will 50% split be sufficient to significantly increase curation? For me it is but for others I'm not sure. Currently, voting on Palnet also votes with Steem. So, curation rewards will still be lower than 50% for Steem and Pal stake combined. That can be worked around by voting with an alt account on Palnet.

  • @distantsignal(66)· 2627d

    I keep seeing this poppycock everywhere. "It's not about taking away creator's rewards, but about getting people to use their stake in a positive manner." This nothing more that an attempt to reframe the simple truth. You are taking rewards away from the creators, the very people you need to drive the platform.

    Then, the next brilliant step in your plan to reorient rewards is to incentivizing curation. Curation of what exactly? The supposed shit content you're saying dominates the platform? This is nonsensical. When I part with my time or money on a product it's because I want it more than my time or money because I value that thing or things more. If the content is so shitty now, why would incentivizing people to curate shit lead to a better platform? Imagine this same dynamic with sandwiches.

    CUSTOMER: Hi! How are your sandwiches? YOU: They're shit, but we'll pay you to eat them. CUSTOMER: Yeah, but they're made of shit. YOU: Okay, right. I see where you're coming from, but we're paying you to go eat it in hopes that you'll find more shit for other people. CUSTOMER: Do you actually pay people to make this shit? YOU: Yeah, but we pay you the exact same for eating it. Fair, right?

    Do you really think this kind of shit going to work?

    There is one reason and one reason alone people aren't flocking to Steem and it's not the rewards structure, it's ease of use. Every single person I've gotten onto the platform gave me the same reasons for leaving and it wasn't the rewards structure for shit sandwiches. It was about ease of use! That's it!

    You have to stop thinking economically and start thinking experientially! Steem is hard to use for most people. It's confusing and the initial exploration is extremely frustrating and so they leave within about two days. TWO DAYS!

    So please, stop trying to sell me your shit.

  • @valued-customer(75)· 2627d

    "... self voting is the most profitable thing to do and getting rid of it won't solve the problem as people can just make multiple accounts to vote themselves. The second major problem is that curation is basically asking someone to give away 75% of their potential earnings because someone did something and if we can accept that value is subjective, then it's only logical that the thing the person did doesn't provide enough value to the other person to make them voluntarily give up resources that they could give themselves."

    This is easily avoided by preventing rewards from being capable of supporting profiteering. Leaving rewards open-ended is just asking profiteers to extract them. According to my last look at @arcange's posts that detail such matters daily, the median payout is .1 SBD, while the average payout is 15 times that. That is the difference between organic curation and profiteering.

    Using an algorithm to limit payouts to some reasonable multiple of the median (I have suggested Huey Long's proposal of 3% to 300%, which leaves two orders of magnitude for incentive for higher quality content, but any reasonable limitation works, such as .5% and 500% - as long as some incentive for newbs remains, and less than ~10 SBD at the top end, to prevent nominal rewards from being extractable by profiteers) will make rewards an unsuitable vector for profiteering. Whales aren't going to spend any time creating vast hordes of bots to vote up vast fleets of botposts to attain nominal returns on their stake.

    Since content creators will be rewarded ~15 times more for their content (eliminating profiteering off rewards will pump the median up to the average, or close) they'll be far more rewarded for their content than they are now. Posts such as this one which is very highly rewarded would receive much less Steem, but still become popular, due to their quality. Folks that are determined to provide financial incentives to posts like this one that merit more can simply use the memospam technique that resteemers use now to tip. PAL and other SE or SMT coins can also be added to the mix, without changing Steem rewards.

    Most of your posts don't earn this much, and even my own would probably halve in value. That's ok by me, because of the following.

    Ending profiteering - the extraction of business returns before they can increase the value of the underlying investment vehicle (traditionally stock, but in this case the Steem token) will enable that value to inure the the token. Steem price will rise, and investors intent on capital gains will be able to buy Steem for that purpose, without needing to become serial self voters to gain ROI. While the amount of Steem payout on posts will remain within the range determined by algorithm, the value of the Steem may well skyrocket, and the actual financial rewards received by creators will do the same.

    Curation rewards are nothing but incentive to profiteer. Uncountable platforms exist that aren't monetized, and folks upvote content based solely on their subjective evaluations. No financial incentive is necessary to drive actual curation. In fact, financial incentive is counterproductive to actual curation - the subjective determination that content is deserving of an upvote - and replaces it with incentive to extract financial rewards. This incentive can be manipulated all you want, but as long as financial incentive is extant, it will remain incentive to profiteer, rather than curate. IMHO, curation rewards should be eliminated as counterproductive to creating incentive to create good content, and allow curation to be the reason for upvotes.

    Those that will remark that this leaves no reason for anyone to invest in Steem, or hold it, simply are unaware that capital gains has been a nominal incentive to invest in enterprises since before history began. It works fine, and also encourages investors to seek to increase the value of the investment vehicle, in this case Steem. Every mechanism that encourages extracting that value prior to it inuring to the token discourages capital gains, and the history of Steem demonstrates exactly this dynamic, as Steem continually falls in CMC. Investors know that profiteering prevents Steem from increasing in price by extracting that value prior to capital gains occurring, and invest in other tokens, despite Steem being one of the best blockchains in the world, and having once been the only cryptocurrency with the most valuable business model/use case in the world, social media.

    Whales aren't going to spend their days consuming content on the whole, because they have other business interests they tend to. That's why they have the funds to buy enough Steem to be a whale. The ninjaminers that hold most of the stake today don't have it because they were savvy investors, but clever devs that either created the ninjamine, or lucked into it and managed to mine stake before Steemit even existed. This is probably why the extraction mechanisms exist: because they weren't coded by experienced investors, but clever devs without prior investment experience.

    Even though their profiteering will be impaired, the buy ins by investors will likely reward them far more, because it will be the value of their stakes that provide most of the capital gains. It will be their stakes that investors buy to invest.

    No one will benefit more from capital gains than extant whales.

    I will be curious to see how PAL fares while riding on the Steem blockchain.

    Thanks!

  • @gduran(68)· 2627d

    No I think you have it really wrong, the biggest problem here is the circle jerk, where a group of about 100 or 200 people vote for each other every day and for nobody else, they take most of the rewards, you just have to look at the people who take in over $20.00 per post same guys same voters. And I see nothing wrong with that, they are taking advantage of the system legally and nothing is going to make them change their ways. whether the rewards are 50/50, 80/20 10/90 they still get the same votes and the same curation rewards and the only work they do is post a short article of so so quality and have their voting bots do the rest and reap the rewards. You go ahead and try to fix that by changing the reward system, 20/80 will just make the few good authors that have stayed here leave ASAP. I am still here because frankly I get a kick out of writing bad posts and making a few cents off of that.

  • @techwizardry(66)· 2627d

    Crux of the problem: voting bots give predictable ROI, curation doesn't (at least the way the voting window algo works right now)!

    If I have lots of SP, why would I waste my precious time curating when I can just passively delegate my SP and collect a steady and predictable income.

    You can play with the curator/author reward percentages all you want, the outcome will be the same. Full-time curators with large SP will want a steady income for their time spent on this platform, or else they go to the bid-bots or spend their $ on other coins.

  • @abitcoinskeptic(75)· 2627d

    I've always been a fan of creating a curation slider and allowing content creators to decide for themselves. It's up to the platform to decide thebupper and lower limits and how to display the settings. For example if I'm not looking for a post to be promoted I'll set curation low and take the tips. Otherwise I will set it high.

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @nateaguila(69)· 2627d

    Definitely gets the brain juices flowing. Lots to chew on here.

    I think the 50/50 split has worked out okay so far. Great rundown of the pros and cons.

    Posted using Partiko iOS

  • @arunava(76)· 2627d

    Wow that was a long Read.

    @clayboyn when I have been here on Steemit for two Years now and have already experienced HF19 and HF20, although I can't say for HF19 as it happened almost the same time I joined and at that time I had no clue how STEEM worked but by the time if HF20 I did get my Bearings right and understood what was going under the hood atleast a little. When HF20 happened there was a huge dissatisfaction among the users and a huge chunk of users simply Powered down and left even though the changes made in HF20 weren't that drastic but what about when the entire Reward Structure is flipped in this HF21 this could really be Catastrophic.

    I do agree that quality content should be prioritized and it deserves better attention but you also have to understand that not everyone creates quality content worth thousands of Dollars, there are a lot of guys including me that just wants to Blog their Lifestyle and Experiences so what about them. Their content should also be worth something but with the new reward structure newbies won't even stand a chance unless their content is A Grade.

    I am ok with change but when there is a change in a fundamental aspect like the Reward Setting/Split I really wished it would have been gradually done. Switching from 75/25 to 50/50 would be just a huge jump. If the split would have been 65/35 I'm favor of Author Reward that I believe would be the perfect option for now and then we check the stats if things are changing. If later on Witnesses decide that they need to Increase Curation Reward more than it can be increased again but in the next HF.

    Drastic change always brings Drastic Results, and I am a little bit worried as to what will happen this Time.

    Posted using Partiko Android

  • @theycallmedan(80)· 2627d

    Curation has to balance out with authors rewards, or we have what we have now. If you tilt the scales in either direction, it becomes 100/0 or 0/100 depending on which side you favor. Fair is irrelevant when exploitation is possible. It is like a game, you need rules or it does not work, and having the wrong rules can be the most devastating, as we have witnessed.

  • @torico(63)· 2627d

    clay no one can ignore you its impossible :P i am a lazy ass curator but i will try to be better..

  • @nealmcspadden(74)· 2627d

    I have to admit that I have found myself doing more upvoting on pal than I have on steem, and it’s explicitly because of the 50/50 reward structure.

    In the past on steem I had this mental calculation going involving my voting power, how much the post has already gained, how rich the author account was, and what other uses I had for my steem power.

    Now on Palnet, I’m just like fuck it, have an upvote. I get half of it back anyways.

    Edit: this also makes me realize that a SCOT can be used as a full scale test net for steem hardforks when applicable. Want to change rewards structure? Throw up a token, airdrop it to everyone with current steem values, and see how people use it.

  • @delegate4upvot(64)· 2627d

    Content creators put in effort to produce the content which was why the initiate higher % of payout to content creators. Excessive self-voting is a problem indeed when these self-voters that may have high steempower do not promote quality content but their own spammed posts. Nevertheless, giving curators higher percentage than content creators may reduce the number of quality posts since time and effort need to be put which I agree with what mindtrap mentioned about no content creators left. BTW I wasn't able to find out when the next hardfork going to be. Do you have an idea?

  • @edicted(83)· 2627d

    Forced curation is a completely broken mechanic and should be scrapped entirely. If someone wants to allow curation to occur on their content, that should be their decision to make and for how much.

    At it's core, Steem is a tipping platform. Yes, a lot of people choose not to tip those who are trying to bring value to the platform. They instead choose to tip themselves or form a circle with a small group. This is normal. This is fine.

    Literally nothing needs to change. If it were up to me I would make curation optional on a sliding scale and peg SBD to a dollar with Steem collateral just like the MakerDAO does it.

    All we have to do is wait. The platform is working just fine. I've been blogging here over a year and I've made way more money here than I would have anywhere else. You might call it a screaming success from this perspective.


    We are coming from a place where content creators are trying to sell their product after giving it away for free. Yeah, this obviously isn't the most profitable business model, but it is a good start and a way to get a foot in the door.

    Going forward encryption will be used to secure ownership of digital content. Frontends will not allow users to access content unless the blockchain proves that they own it. None of this has anything to do with the foundations of the Steem blockchain and can be implemented in a permissionless manner by anyone in the world.

    For example, imagine a game where anyone is allowed to create a skin that makes your character look different. No one will be allowed to use that skin unless they pay the creator x amount for it. Problem solved.

    The same concept can be applied to blogging, but it won't be popular, because who is going to buy blogging content? Smarter to just give it away for free and hope someone is generous, especially if that blogger/vlogger doesn't have a big built-in audience.

  • @nonameslefttouse(77)· 2627d

    It's really no different than selling something for cheap with the hopes of making higher profit in bulk sales. The gourmet restaurant sells hamburgers for $20. They have fewer consumers and make less money than Mcdonalds, who sells their product for the lowest possible price.

    I'm a content producer. I'd rather take a smaller percentage of potentially thousands of votes, than a larger percentage of practically nothing, because a large percentage of nothing, is nothing. Nothing is nearly where I'm at today. After nearly three years, there's no more ladder to climb, it's been downhill.

  • @dalz(81)· 2627d

    Chicken and the egg indeed :) Is a flexible split author/curator something to consider. Some will give away 80%, others 20%. It is up to them.

  • @mindtrap(75)· 2627d

    but I want anyone that reads this to honestly consider what could happen if the split was more like 20/80 in favor of curation.

    I think that there wouldn't be any content creators left...:)

    I have a fair question though...How will the 50 - 50 split will help a newcomer in terms of curation rewards? I have a feeling that those who hold less than 500SP will practically earn nothing -curation wise- regardless if they vote everything at 100%...Even if it's double the curation rewards...no offence here, just out of curiosity.

    They are mainly depended on that 75%

    Besides we all know that newcomers or little fish need an extra push, right?

  • @erickpinos(54)· 2627d

    Interesting that now we can move beyond theory into experimentation. PALnet is a new Steem environment does 50/50 author/curator rewards so we'll see how it plays out. But thanks to the new tools like SCOTs it is possible could set up another Steem environment and test the more extreme model you mentioned and see how it compares.